[Shadowman]

Hi people,
It's been a while since I've been here. That's because I've been learning about web design and not painting as much as I would like to.
But here is a link to a web site that I created for school as a final project. It is a bit fictisious because the organization does not yet exist. If you fill out the form it will send me a E mail. Feel free to do so. I think that in the future if anyone is interested I will do the sit for real!

Feel free to tell me what you think:

http://cpe2.njit.edu/btg2/cleone/web_author/deamweaver_project/

[Dr. T.J. Eckleberg]

I have some questions:

Why is the logo spinning on the splash page? To quote Black, "Your spash page should be a poster."

Why do you have red and blue text on a black background?

Why does the banner continue to animate. Shouldn't once be enough?

Why is the background only under your buttons?

Why is there so much animation of text on what should be an informative site? (After all, if we want gratuitous special effects, we can visit superbad

[DustyKrakk]

Are you fricking crazy?

You want people to give there social security numbers to join your club?

Not a chance in hell, buddy. I know its supposed to be fictitious, but no one in there right mind would put that down for an internet club.

-Dusty

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: DustyKrakk ]

[DarkVVulf]

Design is a bit simple looking.
Nice looking gallery though, but I really wanted to click on the pics for a full size view.

[Shadowman]

DarkVVulf- would you believe some of the tight asses in my class thought that the site was to busy. I agree with you it is a bit simple but part of the grade was that we only had 3 days to do it and there are 3 flash animations a whole lot of buttons and I had to create the java script and HTML and that was on top of the other work I had to do for class. But yes I agree it is a bit simple.

DustyKrakk - it's ficticious. Making a form with the social socurity required was a test to make sure that I am studing my java script. I realy don't want your Soc is .

Dr. T.J. Eckleberg - you sound like a cry baby that is just trying to get some free advertizment for your own crapy site.
I clicked on your links and they don't seem to be going any place. Either they are dead links or you have a realy slow server.
The navigation it in the middle of the page it sould be someware on the side or top people learn that in class 1 of a web design class.
The orange on top of green looks like a bad holloween picture.
Most of your page is dead space! There aren't any interesting graphics at all on your page unless you count the green squares on top of a green background. I'm sure that took a lot of talent.

As far as your comments toward my site are concerned:
What is wrong with flash animation and spinning logo's? I could understand if you have some thing specific to point out about the animation but to say that it is bad period is kind of arrogant.
What is wrong with red and black text you text is stinking orange on black on you site.
As far as the banner animating I don't know why you are so against animation. People that do flash animation for a living make a lot of money.
As far as there only being a backgroung under the buttons I'll give you that. My only excuss for that is aI ran out of time and did the buttons at 2:00 AM in the moring with the site due the next day. If I decide to keep the site for real I will fix that.
When you say that there is a lot of animating text what are you talking about?
I just think that maybee Eckleberg just mabee you are a bit jealous that you don't have any cool animation on you site.
That is if you realy did make that terrible site. If you were in my class Eckleberg you would fail miserably.

Wow doesn't that sound negative on my part?
All I realy wanted was some real advise and this guy has to be commpletly anoyong.

[Shadowman]

One more thing Eckleberg,

I checked out your member status and realised that you are a newbe with only 21 posts and most of them a little judgemental. Also you said in one of your posts that you are a graphic designer with a cushy boring job.
The one thing that I want to ask you is were is your art. I couldn't find any.
Please do share it I would love to see how great it must be.

[roundeye]

quote:

---

When you say that there is a lot of animating text what are you talking about?

---

DUDE! the 'world wide artist association' text (bad typeface) morphs into ugliness and back again for no good reason.

[BASTION]

sorry to say this, but I am actually employed as a web designer and have been working in the field for a few years now...and well the site is pretty bad. Sorry if that's harsh but you need to start somewhere. I'll try and be constructive though...

Firstly I think there is an excessive use of animations, too many animations moving at once tend to draw the eye and confuse the viewer. Also if there is text on the page to read an animation is a bad idea, because every time it moves it tries to force the readers eyes away from what they are reading (the content, which is usually what they have come to the site for).

Why do you need a splash page? I would prefer to go straight into the site, as far as I can see it is a waste of time and bandwidth.

I would also have to agree with the comment about the font colour, blue on black is hard to read, the red is not as bad but I think you could pick a better colour.

As for learning that nav bars always go left and top in lesson 1, that is right but you have to know the rules to break them. You can successfully put nav elements in other locations.

I also would strongly suggest not using frames. They make it much more difficult for search engines to spider your pages, and we already know how hard it is for people to find your site on the web. I don't see any neccessity for it here.

Using programs such as dreamweaver and the like also generate a pile of HTML you don't need. try looking into the code, learn how to write it yourself and you will be able to severly cut down the size of your pages. Especially look into style sheets to determine your style attributes, then you won't need to use font tags and the like. This makes it much easier if down the track you decide you want to change a font colour or background etc.

Anyway I hope you take these as constructive comments, you have a good start but there is still a long way to go. Too many people get a copy of dreamweaver and start playing, a week later they are self proclaimed 'web designers' (not pointing that comment at you directly). As much effort is required in this field as any other, like art or illustration or design. Just my thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em.

[The Green Man]

Hey Shadow Man you really need to learn how to take constructive critisim! If you're gonna blow up everytime someone critiqes your stuff well then you won't get very far in the art industry. And if you want to get into talking about peoples art work well if you want to dis out c&c you need to be able to take it. I guess what I'm really trying to say is GROW UP!

[Jucas]

Whoah! Hold on there cowboy. I don't think the Dr. was trying to be insulting, but I can see how it came off that way. The thing is hey makes alot of good points and as it is the design is not perticularly interesting (espicially for and artists website). There is way to many conflicting themes and issues with the website, why even use flash?

Plus I am not digging the gradient. But I respect anyone who can code a website, it hurts my mind the think about it.

[Shadowman]

I'm reading all of this and trying to figure out what went so wrong?.?.???

Maybee it is that I'm just learning HTML and flash. I just yearned how to add java, frames and cascading style sheets to a web page.
This stuff is new to me and the school that I'm going to is very difficult and I'm feeling a little stressed. If not a lot stressed. It just sounded to me arrogant the way that Dr. guy was being so blunt without saying one positive thing.
I mean I did mention that it was a school project. You can't expect someone that has been doing web design for like a month to be perfect. The sad thing is that I had the second highest grade in class. I can't even imagin what would have been said about some of the other peoples sites if they had posted them.

I think what I'm trying to say is when people give crits please use tact. If people are rude they should expect people to be rude back and vice versa.
If you are respectfuy with you comments I think that people are more willing to listen.........

Oh I forgot to mention to BASTION and the others I will take your advice into concideration and see if I can get something out of it.

It's just going to take experince and hard work. Hopfully I can work on this one and try to fix it up. Also a anger managment class wouldn't hurt either......just kidding......I'm to far gone....for me it would just be a waste of money......

[el scoono]

Hey Shadowman, I know where you're coming from. You're trying to learn all the technical and artistic aspects of web design at the same time, while under the pressure of a tight deadline. It's not easy to produce your best work in that situation.

However, I think you'd really benefit from some graphic design classes. I'm not sure where you're going to school now, but you're very close to some of the best art schools in the world. Pratt, Parsons, SVA, Cooper Union, etc. are all pretty close to you. I live in New Jersey and I commuted into NYC to get my graphic design degree from Pratt. It was well worth it, I came out a much improved artist and designer. Plus, I learned from the best.

[DustyKrakk]

One thing to remember, dude.....yeah, there are probably more polite ways people could have put it, but this is a C&C board.

Sometimes the C&C crosses over into a less objective form, but you simply can't expect everyone to go ga-ga over something......

...ESPECIALLY when you, yourself, admit you are still learning.

Its a good start, I will say. But you still have a long way to go before it looks professional. These are steps which can be achieved by classes, asking for C&C like you are, and reading books. The art world isn't very nice, so sometimes it *does* get a bit frustrating to have people grate on you a bit, but that's the way the world works. It is simply something you, as an artist, need to come to grips with if you are to be a professional.

Remember....these people are just joes and janes. A possible employer doesn't give a crap about what your feelings are. If he sees that it looks like shit, he'll either tell you straight up, or you just won't get a call.

Simple as that.

Its a good start, though....good luck in the future.

-Dusty

[Beowulfthefallen]

I'm sorry to say this, but that is very amateurish. Bad uses of colors, horrible manipulation of Flash (shape tweens don't make anything look good), and a general lack of what is aesthetically pleasing to the average joe.

I do like the paintbrush on the logo animation, but it would be more helpful if it did not loop. I also like the buttons, but the background to them should probably match the background of the page so that it doesn't detract from the design setting.

I'm trying to be as constructive as I can with this, having been around the web field for a number of years. I'm in the process of designing my own webpage, which I am making as simplistic as possible yet still maintaining an element of style. I'm no professional, but I think basic is best.

Just stick with it and take people's advice. Calling anyone a "newbie" does not improve your public image on these forums. Bastion and the Dr. made some good points, so I suggest you listen to a few of them.
http://www.beowulfsden.com my webpage in progress I haven't posted any news yet, which explains the error in the main iframe of the page.
Edit: Hm, those bars and the background SHOULD have been black. Let me update the site.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Beowulfthefallen ]

[The Fritz]

Oh my God...

It's been two or three weeks ago, since I've been to Sijun, and the first thing I read is this -sorry to say that- BULLSHIT
I'm also reading GT Forum and Eatpoo and I can tell you, you find nowhere so much dissing like at Sijun. I still like to come here, because there is some excellent art to find and GOOD critics, but I get the feeling when things start to heat up a lot of heads pop!
When you ask for c&c, allways be ready for everything and take it professional. If you don't agree, try to explain what you think, if you think it's totaly stupid, don't comment.
If you give c&c try to be constructive and keep your manners. Something like: "wow, that is horrible..." doesn't help. Remember, there is allways someone out there who is better then you and you wouln't like to meet this person to hear him say: Hey, your artwork is a pile of s...!"
Give yourself a break, even when it is the internet, nicely anonymous, try to keep it serious.

[HawkOne]

First of all, let me start with a quote of your request from the original post :
"Feel free to tell me what you think:"

I'd have to agree with the crits and semi-flames that have come before, but I would just like to add a little something of my own. You can continue to believe that we�re all cruel vultures lurking on the web, just waiting for you to expose your soft underbelly, ready to shred your �baby� to pieces. It�s not true of course, all the advice previously posted may well have been personally biased, but there is no way you can even consider it flaming or even the slightest hostile �
People don�t waste their time suggesting / pointing out things if all they want is to bust your chops, or at least that is what I would think �

I do realize that it is just a student project, but I think it would be good to judge it as a �real� site, since you�ll probably learn more from that �

I left your page open in a separate window, and after a loooong while Block Rockin' Beats started playing ... Jesus Christ, a 4.9 MB mp3 song as part of a webpage ???!!! What have they taught you about bandwidth in your course??? That is just amazingly ... ummm ... nevermind... How about copyright infringements? Also as far as I�m concerned I�m also not sure the music chosen suits the subject matter of the site.

It would also make a lot of sense to check the spelling of the names of the good company you are making for yourself and your brother in the gallery section. It leaves a BAD impression on art-conscious visitors to see that you haven't even taken the trouble to check spelling of your idols.

Interface design is good, but it looks pretty bad, and your misinformed view that navigation HAVE to be on top or on the left side is not only wrong, but it also shows that whoever is teaching you should probably be up for review. Left hand navbar may be standard, but it is NOT a requirement. As long as people are able to easily/comfortably navigate your site, then your interface is good. It�s as easy as that. Again we need to exclude some of those previously mentioned sites, where the objective is mainly to confuse and �trap� the user in a never-ending cycle of links. Their target audience is not your regular Joe, but other designers looking for sites/interfaces that break all the rules.
Even though I am a designer myself, I find this sort of sites as frustrating as modern art, I just don�t see much point in breaking rules just to break them � but there are plenty who do. Your interface lacks �togetherness�, it gives the impression of being parts from 3 different sites, try to make the overall design elements more in unison by using the same colors (NOT 100% Red, Green Yellow or Blue, most other colors are ok, including �stinking orange on black�), try to make the colors more relaxed and muted, you want the color-saturation on the site to come from your artwork, the color-scheme right here on sijun should give you a hint.

In design color theory you would be taught about the effects of mixing small amounts of green with larger red or vice versa, it creates something called color flicker, and it is hard on the eyes. Using green text on a red background is a big no-no, unless skillfully done on purpose to break the rules sometimes done by the sites for designers, just to sort of stretch the "rules" and make people squint...

I think it is a strange thing, but I have seen it again and again that people with obvious artistic talents like yourself, have little or no esthetic sense when it comes to regular design using text/fonts, choosing colors, interface design and so on ... it is strange really ...

If you go to a site that is in your opinion a great design, what would that be I wonder ..?? Have you seen www.highend3d.com for example?
As far as I'm concerned that is a very nicely done interface, choices of color/type and so on ...

There are other things to mention, one of them being �noise�, which is basically everything that is not strictly necessary for your interface such as putting your name in everywhere, or the previously mentioned intro, and �painterly logo�, why not pick one of them and drop the others. Your logo should probably not have any really fast flashes either, keep it slow, and never fade it completely out to black.

Now; if you believe even for one second that I wasted all this time writing this just to put you down, I will hunt you down and kill your sorry ass � hehehe

Take care � and stay away from those primary colors ...

[DustyKrakk]

No kidding........reply to the man!

Great post, Hawk.

-Dusty

[The Fritz]

Last comment here...
@ HawkOne: Man, that was a crit I think of as a usefull, constructive way to help, thank you man, you rebuild my hope

[green.7]

Strange porno site without porno pics :/

[AcjBizar]

/me is hurting

[Shadowman]

Well that is certainly a lot to take in.
So many opinions that if I were to go back and work on the site it would be hard to know were to start.
I do admit that after taking a second, third manybee a forth look back that yes this site could have and should have been a lot better. It definetly lacks in overall design, the music and splash page and over abondance of animation are kind of too much even though I got some killer extra credit for doing them.
I think when you are in school you kind of get a unrealistic veiw of things trying to put everything that you just learned in just for the sake of you are so happy that you learned all of this new stuff.
Another thing is that I'm going to a information technology school and artistic talent is not a requirment but realy for web sites it should be.

el scoono - Thanks for the understanding. You sound like you know exactly how I felt.
HawkOne - I do think that what you have said is very useful. I'm going to realy think this stuff over.
Beowulfthefallen - Thank you for your comments.
I think for now I'm just going to look at other peoples sites and just try to absorb some of it.

****************************************
One thing that I would like to add is ..... does anybody have any links to exellently designed sites. Especialy ones with good use of flash......

[NiM]

When it comes to flash my favourite has always been http://www.gabocorp.com .. hope it's still around...

[Shadowman]

Nim- the gabocorp flash site is realy cool.
Every diferent from the usual flash stuff that I've seen.
Enyone eles that views this post that likes flash should give it a look...