[Ken McCracken]

My ancestors got out of europe before europeans became genocidal, fascistic, police-state psycotics. Blame yourself, not my ancestors.

[Ken McCracken]

** claps for the nazis **

Oh look, they kill innocent people, but boy they sure can launch crap into space!

I just guess it is a good thing the nazis never figured out how to put a working atom bomb on the tip of a V-2 . . .

Do you think they would have used it??

Nah . . .

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: Ken McCracken ]

[Svanur]

You know that Nazis was a minority party in Germany, what they used to control was fear. Other German people didn't dare do anything against them in fear of that they would be killed and their family with them.

Same thing could probably end with the US. Fear will always govern people. I could well believe some US president to do something that the public would object but he would still be able to enforce it.

People are weakminded and always will be in some way or another.

But who am I to argue, the majority is always to blame for the actions of the few. So probably it would be best for the US to bomb Europe from the face of the earth, right Ken? And maybe Russia and Asia while they are at it.

Personally I can't wait for Bush to fuck up everything West side or some other president or individual. Then you will see how perfect the US are from Europe.

But what can I say? I am a genocidal European that rapes innocent school girls, throw burning acid at women faces and pee on the US flag. Why not get rid of us while you still can



But then again, Europe has created more beauty and stories than the US has ever done. You get rid of us and you get rid of history. Be thankful for us, without us, you would never have existed.



Don't take this personally but I got a bit pissed off at your remarks toward Europe and the rest of the world, after all, I live in it.

[Ken McCracken]

First of all, the nazis were not some 'small minority' in Germany. They were ELECTED to office, you know.

And who the fuck said anything about bombing europe?

Oh, and the next time you hear rock music, jazz music, or see a great movie, just tell yourself that the US cannot create anything beautiful.

The US owes a tremendous amount to europe, and there are a helluva lotta things europe does better than we do. That is true, so I have no problem admitting it.

I don't hate europe, I just hate europe's political history which, I am sorry, is just psychotic.

If you are offended by my remarks about europe, well, am I supposed to just sit back and not be offended about the bigoted statements made about the US?

The US is far from perfect, and our own history is fucked up too, but not EVERYTHING is bad about the US, and if you have not been here, when you visit you might see that too.

And, Bush is an asswipe. All politicians are asswipes. You must have an ego disorder and an unbalanced personality to be a politician. The best thing you can do is put yourself in a position where you least need to depend upon them.

[Jezebel]

quote

Quote:

I don't hate europe, I just hate europe's political history which, I am sorry, is just psychotic.

The United States is very young compared to the rest of the world. We haven't exactly been around long enough to have a "psychotic" episode yet.

And on a side note, I don't really care which side anyone in this thread anybody is arguing for, either way it's rediculous to say you dislike the people from a certain country just because they are from that country. It's rediculous to blame the people for something their leader does (unless every single person had a distinct role in it somehow). The attitudes I hear in threads like these are no different than saying, "I hate black people because rap music sucks." It's sterotyping no matter which way you slice it.

[Lapjos]

FK BSH!

[Poprocksz]

Jezebel is right, we are a really young country.And we haven't had a real crisis
in our country since the depression.

America is a bigger sized country....And our
neighbors are Canada and Mexico....to really weak ass
countries in a military sense.
Anyway....We have states....

Now if you look at Europe....it kind of like a lot
of "states", but the states are different
countries, beliefs, laws, religions, and
government. Put that situation in america
where every state we had was a different
country. Then see how long it takes for the
tension to rise.....Europe is so crammed together
with all this difference that it's no wonder
things like Napoleon and Hitler happened.

I know I KNOW......We have lots of different
kinds of people really crammed here as well...with races and religion.
And even once in our short history we have warred with ourselves.But we're one country
now, so its not like we're gonna attack California.

Revolution is possible...but what would we change?

[Lapjos]

Just felt i have to say more than I did in my detailled statement regarding my relationship to Mr. Bush

Ken McCracken: First Europe does not only consist of Germany but of several other states, second this is history but Bush is now, third your rethorical methods are questionnable (no personal attack), fourth the Nazis weren't elected to office because the people wanted Jews and Communists being killed but for their promise bringing the unemployment rate down, raising the economical level and that kind of stuff.

ciao

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lapjos ]

[Ken McCracken]

Okay, the third reich is history but Bush is now. I hope by that you don't mean that Bush is somehow as bad as the nazis.

My rhetorical methods are questionable? Are you disupting my point that europe's history is appalling?

Finally, Hitler's hatred for the jews was hardly a secret when he was elected. I would agree though it appears that the german electorate as a whole was not motivated by anti-semitism. I seem to recall that there was polling data at the time to the effect that the average german citizen did not support running the jews out of germany.

[faustgfx]

hey blaise, five words- you are a fucking retard.

[exo13]

I hate everyone, everyone�s an asswipe... Except Jezebel, she's always nice to me.

Seriously though Despite all that you say, I find myself being barely affected, at least not enough to complain more than I usually do. The truth is that things could be much worse! At least in this country we have access to a legitimate education and medicine. We may not be up to the health care and educational standards of Eastern Europe and Japan, but we survive just fine.

You have to admit, when so much of the world is lead by psychos who murder the innocent, deny freedom of speech and belief, kill someone just because of their race or just plain horde money until their nation is so poor that it can't even spell the word "impeach", the US has been pretty lucky when it comes to leaders. Our leaders are kept from doing too much damage by the system of checks and balances that was established by Madison, and are forced to run for president again if they want to stick around for just one more term (unlike FDR who was pretty cool so it's ok that he stuck around for four terms).

90 percent of the world's population lives in poverty, nearly one fourth of the world lives under an oppressive government where human beings are nothing but a commodity. Civil, religious, ethnic or territorial wars are common place throughout the middle east and Africa. Throughout all this, the we're complaining about some guy who hasn't even had any significant time to even prove you're right? I wouldn't vote for Bush in a million years but he is not the sole malevolent ruler of the country. He can't do a single thing without a majority vote to back him up. In that case you have to say that the majority of US citizens are asswipes... No argument there by why single out just one?

Just feel lucky that you live in a country where your allowed to speak this way about your leader, instead of being murdered ruthlessly like the marchers in Tiananmen Square who just wanted to be heard and to be acknollegded by the government that they live under. Have you ever went out to vote on election night and been shot at? Having said all this about the president in a publicly viewed forum, have soldiers come to your home yet, have you received a death threat?

I�m not discouraging your oppinion since you have a lot of valid arguments, but if you actually want to change something, be sure not to leave any hanging chads.

[Lapjos]

Okay, the third reich is history but Bush is now. I hope by that you don't mean that Bush is somehow as bad as the nazis.

We'll see. But Bush is a problem of our times and we have to deal with him now while the others' time is over.

My rhetorical methods are questionable? Are you disupting my point that europe's history is appalling?

Only as far as I am stating Europe is more than Germany. I am questioning your rhetorical methods but this has nothing to do with your point because that's personal preference (I detest accumulation )

ciao

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lapjos ]

[Jezebel]

quote

Quote:

I hate everyone, everyone’s an asswipe... Except Jezebel, she's always nice to me.

[faustgfx]

she's always nice to me too, so you are far from special.

[Svanur]

Ken: What I meant was that the Nazis weren't everyone. Most German people were normal, the Nazis was a group that used fear to hold their reign. Of course Hitler was also an idol, at first, to the people, because he in fact fixed the economic decline which had been since WWI. Which was caused by the French and Britain as they demanded high sums of money because of the damage the Germans did in WWI.

The bombing remark was because it sounded like you had some distaste for Europe. I was also to see your final view toward it.

I never said that the US couldn't create anything beautiful, I just said that Europe has a longer history and therefore more to show than the US. But you made Doom a reality and there are artists like Frank Miller that I look up to. Hell, we wouldn't be sitting here talking if the PC hadn't seen the light of day.

The remarks I made about the US was not that it's a bad country, but various descriptions I have had from American and European friends.

And I wouldn't mind living in the States. I have been once there, when I was 14. Was in Florida. Nice place, a bit too many T-shirt shops. The US has it's problems but so has any other country.

Nobody is perfect, I will never claim that Europe is perfect nor the US. But that doesn't necessarily make them bad places.

If you think that Politicians are asswipes, you should try to get into office. I think things could be changed as long as people tried to. Currently I think that people just don't care whats happening. They argue and whine about the problems each government does but they never do anything to make it better, they just whine. It's no different in the US as it is here in Iceland.


Poprocksz:
The problem in Europe is that we have all these lands crammed together like the States are, except that every land in Europe speak their own language and even have their own army. Add to it centuries old blood feuds like between France and Britain. It's a boiling point but somehow it has managed to be peaceful(in some sense) for the last 50 years. Luckily for us here in Iceland we are an island in the middle of nowhere so we get left alone( but of course Bush wants to build a missile silo here in case Europe attacks, he is been trying to negotiate with the politicians here)

The reason why we won't see a new Napoleon or a Hitler is because people are more informed now. We are perhaps finally learning from history. Of course there is always a possibility but hopefully it's becoming less and less with each decade.


One final lesson:
Since the cold war, the US hasn't had a real enemy. What I fear is that someone will create a common enemy and get some following. Hitler did this. The jews were an enemy. He used them to unite his people to fight against a common foe. Even now, we see it happening again with Neo Nazis, here in Europe and the US. White people gang upon coloured and Black people stick together to defend themselves, which creates even more tension and separation.

What most people have to learn is to understand each other.

Damn that was long

[FatPenguin]

did you know that there are places in the US where Chomsky isn't allowed to speak?

[starfish]

well, at least Chomsky tells how the big
weels turns. guess there are people who
thinks that Joe Average should be kept
from understanding that.
if you are working in the media industry
or planning to become involved he is a great
read too. =)
some of his lectures are even available on cd I've heard.

[faustgfx]

who's Chomsky?

[ambient-whisper]

bout the cars.
no need for vegetables..
you can use air..

http://www.theaircar.com/

[Anthony]

Yeah, it's terrible that Bush is following through on what he campaigned on. The swine! And he hasn't even done all the things that he promised he would yet! And he's been in office, what, 7 months?! Jeez, what a lazy bastard, not doing everything in 6 months or less. He should have learned something from those efficient, prosperous, and cultured Europeans with their booming economies and high standard of living! And what's with Putin agreeing to the missle defense? The coward! He should have gone to Jiang and both attacked the white house with nuclear weapons! No matter though, the US relies so heavily on Russia and China to export goods to that when they cut the US off, America will fall! HAhahahaha! Dirty greedy capitalist swine!

[starfish]

faustgfx: get on www.alltheweb.com
use keywords: Noam Chomsky
'Manufacturing Consent' is highly recommended =)

ambient-whisper: wohoo, dang cool stuff!!
that's an invention the world is in really need of,
major coolness =D
imagine the possibilities...

now we can only hope that they can keep the
patent from being bought up and buried by
the oil industry. this will be a really
interesting case to follow =)

hehehe, I signed up for an own aircar =D
*looks for some fluffy dices...*

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[Poprocksz]

I guess we could talk about how bad we got it
but We don't got it that bad....

This is a dicussion about Bush.....
and how he doesn't deserve to be our leader.

I haven't said much....but I'm enjoying reading yous guys debate.....

oh...and Blaise....told ya

The whole Nazi thing has really come out in this....
I used to be a member of Anti-Swastica
and we would rally where the Nazi's were against them.....

I stopped cuz I realized I was still a hater,
I was hating those who hate....makes me the same.

Yes Europe had the Nazi's......so what...
I can count soooo many other vicious world
dictators.....it's just what happens when a country
needs a revolution....
It just depends on who starts it...

Like I said last post....
If there was a Revolution in America,
what would you change?.....really?

[ambient-whisper]

quote:

---

Originally posted by starfish:
ambient-whisper: wohoo, dang cool stuff!!
that's an invention the world is in really need of,
major coolness =D
imagine the possibilities...
now we can only hope that they can keep the
patent from being bought up and buried by
the oil industry. this will be a really
interesting case to follow =)
hehehe, I signed up for an own aircar =D

---

yep its definitely cool. though...i imagine that a compressed air tank of that size can be quite dangerous..( think of how loud of a pop it would make if it were to be pierced )...so until the day that they have some major safe material for the container ill be driving my bicicle

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: ambient-whisper ]

[Ken McCracken]

Svanur, I respect your views. I think we each accused the other of things we really didn't say.

Two other things: I have run for political office. I ran for state representative in Illinois, and got 8% of the vote on the Libertarian ticket!!

No, I will never run again.


Also, I met Noam Chomsky once and heard him speak numerous times. Once with Abbie Hoffman, with whom I had a quick debate.

[starfish]

well, I don't believe there needs to be
a 'Revolution' revolution.
it only takes one thing basically, though many
people might find it an extremely hard thing to do.
turn off your tv for one week(yeah, a whole
week), then invite your neighbors for some
tea/coffee/lemonade and cookies =D
that's all it takes to scare the s**t out
of any people in power.

and remember the golden rule:
"do to others what you want others do to you"

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[Lapjos]

Of course Hitler was also an idol, at first, to the people, because he in fact fixed the economic decline which had been since WWI. Which was caused by the French and Britain as they demanded high sums of money because of the damage the Germans did in WWI.

Not to forget the world economy crisis which hit G very hard (wasn't that caused by Republican politicians???), the non-calculation (?) of 40 Billion GM reparation payments. If you see these facts, it is a waste of time, to explain why people voted Hitler.

Hell, we wouldn't be sitting here talking if the PC hadn't seen the light of day

Wasn't the PC invented by Zuse, a german engineer?

Nobody is perfect, I will never claim that Europe is perfect nor the US. But that doesn't necessarily make them bad places

Let's say Europe is the lesser of the two evils j/k But IMO it's the US' own fault by claiming they are the superpower that the eyes of the world are aimed at the States and that their issues are even discussed by non us citizens. Mankind still has a long way to go...


Poprocksz:
The problem in Europe is that we have all these lands crammed together like the States are, except that every land in Europe speak their own language and even have their own army. Add to it centuries old blood feuds like between France and Britain. It's a boiling point but somehow it has managed to be peaceful(in some sense) for the last 50 years.

You only refer to the European Union but not to geographical Europe. Didn't you notice there was a war in Europe in the last 10 years?

Luckily for us here in Iceland we are an island in the middle of nowhere so we get left alone( but of course Bush wants to build a missile silo here in case Europe attacks, he is been trying to negotiate with the politicians here)
Of course there is always a possibility but hopefully it's becoming less and less with each decade.

I hope that, too. And my dream is the next time some idiotic head of states want to make war the people of these states object and say NO! You want to make war but we don't want to kill other people only because you want us to gaining you more power. FK U!

What most people have to learn is to understand each other.

Yep!

Damn that was long

Long, but I had a good reading

peace and love

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: Lapjos ]

[DarkAgesDragon]

For all those interested in Chomsky's writings, I think most of them can be found here.

[Poprocksz]

Thats what I said Lapjos...

If all the states in America were different countries....it wouldn't take long for war to break out......or for a "so called" Revolutionary....

I'd rather invite my neighbor over for
Beer and a BBQ.....

[starfish]

*invites whole forum for milk and fresh baked buns* =)

[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[Lapjos]

Make BBQ, not war!