[Shiro_tengu]

Man that is awesome in the extreme. I love your lighting on skin - it’s extremely good. I would be very tempted to empty that shmizer's (spelling?) magazine into those two Nazi’s! And quickly too, wouldn’t want to get burned alive!!

Awesome! Let me just say;

Your image is extremely accurate and correct but lacks your usual freedom of expression. Your sketches are more relaxed and free. When you sketch, you free up your mind and create a great sweeping sense of movement and a brilliant dancing of light. Your forms come together because you do not require the most intricate details to allow the picture to tell its story. I think perhaps, you trapped yourself in details, which cost you your spontaneity.

That said - you are a master and this IS an awesome piece and I can't see anything wrong with it. I love the pic. I would have prefered a different face on the guy but thats just a matter of personal preference.

I wish I illustrate half as good as you!!

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: Shiro_tengu ]

[Jason Manley]

hmmmm....I can see your frusteration with the image. It is hard sometimes to really crank out your best work when you are conscious of that trying...at least that is how it is for me.... Something tells me another day or two away from it and then one concerted effort at adjusting some of the pose and shape issues that are stagnating it would have made for a better piece.

my favorite part is the puddle...one of the best puddles ever...I love that kind of secondary goodie...great envoronmental mood device...good feel too.

The figures..while they are some of your better attempts and while the foreground figure is ok..the background figures are stiff...remind me a bit of really good macfarlane toys...like they are placed rather than "doing". The foreground figure is fine...he is tough as hell...the biggest challenge would be to get the same amount of of "doing" in the back figures as the still tension of the foreground figures.

Im not sure what it really is that is keepint it from being one of your better images..The main thing I notice is that it is really heavy in vertical shape and axis. It is one of those cross compositions that were used in prerenaissance times...when everything flows up and down and then the focal area runs through an implied T line (through the arm and the flame thrower)....what happens when you do that is that the image stiffens up..just like in prerenaissance compositions....that is a stagnant "linear" composition if it is not broken up by a more moving tonal pattern and opposing implied lines. I really just think its the wrong composition choice for the image "if" you were to keep the figures exactly how they are. Simply changing the value shapes and the lighting may have helped add movement to the subtle and beautifully tense situation you suggest.

...looking a bit more it seems like an offset golden mean or rule of thirds composition combined with the cross composition I mentioned...either way the straight linear elements add up to either a tic tac do or cross composition...either way those are compositions used to hold a visual situation still...sometimes too still.
For me...its about balancing the linear composition against the tonal aspects...whether that be the repeated arcs you are using or different shadow shapes...there has to be enough of the contrasting design element to spark the image....flint needs steel to make fire.

Im sure there are a million solutions. paying closer attention to edges and colors for space would help to relax the eye and support the mood...see the edges of color and shape that are both above the shoulder of the GI and above the head of mr flamethrower...similar colors..same edge contrast...that equals flat.


but that is just my two cents and a simple opinion at that.

I couldnt get to the sketches...wanted a password...Id love to see what your other composition ideas were.

I dont want to sound snobby...I know how inspiring and strong your work is....but that was my honest impression of this particular piece.


jason

PS..the posts below mine was referring to me not originally being able to see the images. I checked later and I could see the main painting...just not the sketches.

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: Jason Manley ]

[Blitz]

*hands jason some WorthlessMeat Super Glasses*
You need some of these

[Shaded]

Oh there is lots of aesthetic value to this picture, but in terms of the frustration, my response is a mix of Mr Manley's and Sumaleths. Id also like to second the comment about the puddle being a very nice element in the image. It almost helps show more, in the sense that there is depth in the reflection. May I also add that the textures on the jacket and floor are what caught and held me for the longest time. I can only imagine how you went from rough to final on those.

Heres hoping you dont stay dissatisfied for too much longer! Sooner or later, the ball must bounce back up.

[c]

i think it is too orangy and saturated, and too realistic.

i wish i knew what mr manley said .

i really like sketch3. i think if u went in that direction your client would have used the picture.

i wish you would paint in traditional media more often , especially with the looser, more impressionistic stuff that you like to do...

but photoshop is so much cleaner huh!

[A.Buttle]

I'm still waiting to have your babies, C Dogg.

ph34r the Mullins Conspiracy

[Anthony]

I would have used Sketch 7 for the cover, as is pretty much. It has the intensity and forza that you'd need for the character in Wolfenstein. The final guy...looks kinda worried. Also, everything is so well lit in the final, it doesn't have the sense of danger and fear that comes with it(which then promoted the character, stern and intense, to a higher level, a level of being a hero). That's my take anyway, I'm not about to critique your composition or technique! :]

[Quasar]

I like when you do sketchy looking stuff like the stuff you did for EA but I gotta tell ya this is truly masterful I cant believe they did'nt use it. Brilliant colors always sell a box better then ..ohh say a total black box what where they thinking ??
Im not used to seeing such finished work on the forum I mean I have seen your contact stuff but when you set out to make something look finished you do a damn fine job

[[666]Flat]

Man you can still sell it to the print magazines (game magazines). And maybe there's gonna be a "Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Hints and Tips" book or something like that. I would buy the damn book just because of the cov@r, dude, I telly a!

[oscar]

Oh my Gawd... That image rocks. The lighting on mr. Blackovich's face (does he still carry that name?) the flame, the radiosity, the puddle... the IMAGE Very gloomy mood. Did you use a photoref for the guys face?

Damn shame to see they went for the cheap design... Seems as though quality covers are no longer appreciated Couldn't they have taken the best of both? i.e.:



You rock man Keep it up! If only you'd used this pic for a tutorial

BTW, Did anyone notice the resemblence with the original Wolfenstein 3D splash screen?

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: oscar ]

[Sumaleth]

Oscar: excellent mockup there! That works great.

Row.

[[666]Flat]

to all the guys who think they would've taken the pic if it was "more loose": get a life. Nobody wants a crappy Picasso kinda pic on his game box. This sort of pictures like above, like on the cover of Half-Life or Opposing-Force or Blue-Shift, yeah, that's the shit people wanna see. It would be more efficient and accurate to simply make some photos in a catacomb chamber kinda place with some masked 50$/h-punks and simply let have run some filters over the photos, like in Max Payne - it won't get "realer" than that, yo. And never underestimate simplicity, "just a dark box with some kinda freaky font on it sucks" - no way, there is one thing much more important than to have a supersw337 cover: to have a box that looks unlike the next box. If there are 50 boxes with sw337 paintings (ok, in reality there ain't) and one simply black with a k3wl font on it, which box you think stands out the most?

Yeah, right, damnit, simplicity = winn4r!!!1

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: [666]Flat ]

[oscar]

Thanks I just think it's a shame to see so much talent and effort disappear in the wastebin.

[Starseed]

I agree with all of the positive comments and some of the negative so I won't add anything. I would like to ask why you are using the new name, spooge? Also, did you throw out "Worthless Sack of Shit" as a name candidate before arriving at that one?

I just got my hands on a nice new wacom (my first tablet) so, like so many others, I would love to see a tutorial for an image like this.

[StrangeFate]

amazing, and if it helps, every single image gives a great wallpaper =]

[Highfive]

This is an excellent piece of work! It's amazing how much detail you can work into your paintings once you perfect the lighting and colours.
I hope some new pirate games come out soon, Craig, since they'd be right up your alley.

I can understand why that illustration wasn't chosen over the box cover, as everyone here has explained. It's too bad that marketing has a big say over what goes and what doesn't.

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Highfive ]

[Muzman]

Very nice, very nice. (I'd go for the figure from 3 with the same shadow effect from 2 meself. Seems more like a magazine cover to me, as is. Although these days, if current PC mag covers are anything to go by, you'd need to squeeze in a girl in in a swimsuit somewhere.)
I think it's all been said and I can see your reservations WMS.
I'm curious about the process;
Did they choose which sketch/concept/composition for you to work up? And why that one if they didn't end up liking it?
Is it just a case of them changing tack whenever they feel like it (as their wont)?

[balistic]

I think the weak part is the flame guard . . . his pose, the flame, even the rendering style on him just don't do a lot for me. I think your treatment of BJ is fine, and the floor reminds me of a painting that Sargent did in Venice . . . you probably know the one I'm thinking of.

As far as it being a cover . . . I'd love to see it on the manual, but I've got a major soft spot for that double-eagle "W" logo they've been using, and think it may well be a better choice from a marketing/branding perspective.

[Chris Chuckry]

This is a nice piece. However, I think you could improve it by throwing the f/g figure into cool shadow, creating a more depth and mood--like you did in sketch 7. Then a little rim lighting on the fig. would tie him in with the flame throwing nazi. I think these changes would draw the viewer in and create less competition between the objects in the painting. I really like your painting style, I'm always impressed.

Cheers.

[samdragon]

I'm glad to see you're still doing game "type" art.
I think the cover art you have presented works great with the idea of the "realistic" game type. From what I've seen in the demo version it fits perfectly.
It's just a shame they didn't chose your cover art. My only guess is that it wouldn't stand out on a shelf as much as the bright logo does. "product" placement etc. I could be wrong, but that's only sane reason I can think of.
I would like to know more about how you arrive at getting this type of comission. We sometimes farm out our cover art, as well as some other cut scene type art. I would love to have you work on some of our cover art, or cut scenes if possible.

Oh, one more question, do you always present color roughs for your concepts? That's something I don't see alot. I usually see the non-repro pencil drawings or just graphite. It's so nice to see full color roughs, it gives so much more to work from.

[cyBeAr]

I think one of the problems with the image (as a cover for wolf) is that it isn't the enviroment you (at least I) asociate wolfenstein with. I know that there are catacombs in the new game but I first think of the blue/grey castle from the original.

[c]

a. buttle> huh?

[worthless_meat_sack]

Seems like people like it more than I do... that good!

Icannon Thanks! Yes, I have to figure out a different way to do flame. It seems that every illo I am asked to do has something like that in it.

The_monkey Yes, I started with a scan on some concrete, put the drawing over that and started painting, or rather glazing, or rather the digital equivalent, which is low opacity. It got more opaque as things went on.

Golongria- Black guy in the lion skin? Which one was that? I don't always have this trouble, but with finished figures I seem to. That pirate head is the only one I thought was passable.

Burnout- thanks!

Digital Genesis- yes, it seems the server has limited connections, and people were DL a lot when I first posted this. It should be fine now.

Socar MYLES wow, a female person who like FPS. That's cool. Yes, the game looks great, soon they will do this image with the game engine. And it will look just as lifeless! Your Dad should be happy, get one for Christmas for him.

magicman- here ya go. I had to change it, as my angle was a little wrong. Taking good ref is an art in itself. the technique is as I have described. Drawing, texture, render.

suny- I agree I like the sketches better, but I think getting something like that on a cover is a million to one. It does look like pulp stuff. But that is the way previous wolf covers were done.

Marvel- I might have been better horizontally cropped, as there is a lot of real estate top and bottom that was required to fill the box, but does not help the image. I tried to be entertaining in the whole image.

-hoodz- yes, I have that problem a lot. Blend colors by being careful about what colors you are putting down. There really is no blending as I think you mean.

shahar2k thanks, I agree with your thoughts. I the end, the composition was given to me by an ID artist, when my comps did not go through.

Ripelly- The idea is that the castle is big, and the soldiers have been looking a while, and that is why they are not so active. The idea is to ceate a tension of something that is ABOUT to happen. Right now, the flamethrower is just randomly blasting about, hoping to hit something. It's fun ya know, those things.

Dixter- thanks! The actual composition gave me a lot of trouble, trying to get the figures as large as possible with very limited horizontal space to play with. I would have liked to overlapped things some, but could not. In the preceding comp, the player in really deep in the shadows, but I put that very artificial light on him (my mistake) because I knew he had to be number 1 read. I like him hidden a lot more.

Tutorial? Look on my FTP, there are 3 movies showing exactly how I work.

Sumaleth, yes, I agree with your comments.

thrmx- heehe thanks! Do that...

docfunkalot- I taught once, it was fun. But that was just those cubes, I don't know anything else well enough that I would feel qualified teaching. A book? That�s creepy. Maybe in 10-20 years.

Goldenboy- I have not looked at a software store in a while, but I would imagine that illos are on there way out as cover art. The game is just to big to get it all in one image! It is a tough job. The graphic solution says it all. I had the same problem with marathon infinity.

Come to think of it, I have been commissioned 4 times to do a game box. Three were not used. The one that WAS used was the ugliest thing I have done. The art direction was by committee and abominable( this was definitely not the case here). And that is the one that was used! Irony continues it unstoppable march.

gowansy21k Thanks! See above on how it was done.

masta flat-Well, you are crazy, aren't you? I think they did the right and conservative thing. A launch of this size is not something to get creative with. Thanks! glad you like it!

Quasar-Thanks, but I have to learn more about this kind of work. I will, but if it takes a 1000 cycles to learn something (doing it from beginning to end and doing the process over again) it will take a while. There are not many commissions that allow for this kind of thing. 90 percent as good and fast and cheap is the magic combo most of the time.

Flat, good idea. They still have the image, of course, and I heard that they were going to put it on the installer screen, but ID stopped that as it really messed up the image. SO they may have some other plans for it.

MoleculeMan- exactly the thought process that was used, I think.

Blitz- Thanks! I do seem to have success with floors, for some reason.

Bishop_six- glad you like it! Reference, indispensable when you are a beginning artist, can become a horrible crutch later. The art will suffocate under the tyranny of the photography. Proper use of ref is a more advanced thing than were I am at at this point. At least when trying to do finished figures in Photoshop, of which I have done only a handful.

Spooge Demon? That hack? eww...

I use photoshop, and have a little artz tablet on its last legs. The cover has a big hole in it and the pen tip is almost gone. I want to get a 12/18 incher, but the one I have is a little like Linuses blanket. Just learn drawing and painting. That is what it is.

Malachi- glad you like it! No, I did not do that. Could you post it? I would be interested to see it.

Zorglub- thanks!

Shiro_tengu- Very well said.

Jason- Wow, thanks for all that info. As I said, I feel that the vertical format does not work for this composition. I just want to crop it. And the lighting on the figure, required, does not help at all. Shadow would be much better, as in the comp. It looks so artificial as well, the light is positioned so "correctly" it looks quite staged, which feeds into the stiffness problem. As far as the academic aspects of the composition, I really do not know. I try hard not to think about that, as it will really confuse me.

Thanks for writing what you did, I appreciate it.

Shaded, the jacket is really pretty simple. If you set it up right, it should not take that much work, The drawing, basic value, get that right and it should fall together.. If not, something else is wrong.

c- to realistic, hehe, that�s supposed to be good! Well I agree personally, but that was the aim with this, it had to be realistic, with a minimum of artiness. I am going to be painting more, away from the computer. I already have done 50-100 landscape sketches from life, but now it is time to move indoors.

A.Tuttle- I mean buttle, you are kinda cute...

Anthony- I agree with your comments

oscar- blastowitz, or something similar. Yes, posted the photo ref.

I really like the comp you did, that would have worked out really well!

Starseed- I did not think about that for my new name. I am still spooge, but this browser is logged in as wms, and spooges password is buried in my PC browser that won't let me log in anymore

Strangefate- wallpaper away!

highfive- pirate covers! cool! I would really try to hard and choke another big one.

Muzman- The game has nazi babes in shiny black leather. That's what it needs! See comment to Shahar2K about the sketches.

balistic- yes I know that image. Love it. I copied it when I was a kid. Guess it is still floating in my brain somewhere, but I did not make the connection till you mentioned it.

Chris Chuckry- I agree totally.

Samdragon- I got your mail about getting game work- congratulations! Sorry I have not written back. maybe the bright logo is right. If you are competing against half life, which as I remember is day glow orange, a dark moody illo is not going to cut it. I do work in color like these comps to show ideas. I think it works out well, gives that client a better idea of what it will look like, and it makes the shapes and lighting integral with the sketch.

cyBeAR- maybe so, I have never played the first one.

Awetopsy- Yes, sometimes the glazing technique needs to be opaque more.

Adezj-thanks!

Phew. I type really slow, that took 2 hours...

[A.Buttle]

2 hours?! For the love of Christ! Get thee Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing!

And you're damned right I'm cute. Rawr.

[A.Buttle]

Oh, and way to go on the Brazil reference.

Now, if you can find out what my other name is from, I'll send you a cookie down there in Malibu.

[Awetopsy]

Im almost hesitant to reply, asI dont want to sound too butt-kissy. I really do Like the face alot. but the gun bothers me.. Its almost like you can see through the barrel..

and the pants above *his* right leg... seems a bit too sketchy..

great work tho.

[AdezJ]

amazing

[worthless_meat_sack]

I am waiting for a voice recognition that works

I forgot the full rez cutout and photo ref.

careful, cutout is 250k

cutout

photoref

Geez i could have done better on that head. Coulda woulda shoulda

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: worthless_meat_sack ]

[shahar2k]

Dragon Naturally Speaking 5.0 I worked in a computer lab for disabled students in my college, and it works FLAWLESSLY (after you read it a story so that it learns your voice )

btw I was wondering if any of the sijun illuminati might be interested in giving a lesson in composition, overall design, and maybe even color theory.

I think it's a subject that's often ignored in the face of technique and accuracy, while in actuality it's (in my oppinion) the one thing common to all visual arts.

I didnt even know it existed before I had my first serious college drawing class with a certain Gerald Swigger (www.swigger.com)

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: shahar2k ]

[oscar]

Whoa... Cool! Really sorry, but I still dig that pic tremendously

So tell me, who's the guy on reference photo? Do you use models or is it just someone you know? Also, the lighting looks so cool, I'll bet you put a big spotlight on the bastard, didn't ya?

Please lemme know. I have an expensive digital cam too. Never thought I would use it for stuff like this

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: oscar ]