[Andy`Ba]

Is there any vegetarians or vegans here?
We recently opened a forum for veggies.
There is a art compartment there.
So if you want you can post some of Your images there.

Here is the url:
VegTalk.org

Thanks for your help.

[Chris]

Not to dis or anything, but what is the big deal on eating meat again?

[Impaler]

Chris: Some people find it wrong or immoral to eat animals because they figure we're evolved and smart enough to survive off of plant life alone, and therefore shouldn't be eating millions of pounds of cow and chicken a year.

I personally don't see anything wrong with eating meat. Not doing so is going against evolution and the food chain, which is something that is not the greatest idea. Well, that and I like weighing more than 90 pounds.

However, I suggest that about 55% of all Americans (the overweight kind) go on a vegetarian diet for about a year or two. That should solve a lot of problems.

[Jezebel]

[Begin Rant]

Ummm... if you people want to eat meat then so be it. This guy is posting a link that's obviously not for you so quit trying to push your beliefs around eh? I get pretty damn tired of non-veggies trying to "justify" eating meat when nobody is even telling them it's wrong. Personally I couldn't give a flying rats ass what you're eating so there's no reason to get all defensive about it. Nobody is telling you what's right or wrong, nobody is telling you to do something... he just posted a friggin' link to his forum.

I happen to be vegetarian because I think eating meat is both disgusting and unhealthy. And personally I believe the human body isn't designed for it. It's not about evolution or intelligence. Although I do think it's pretty cheap to keep mass producing animals for food when it's completely unnecessary. People COULD live without meat and it would be better for the environment, better for other animals, better for people. Less land would be destroyed for production, pollution wouldn't be as much of a problem and we'd have more space (and money) to feed hungry people. I don't just do it for me, I do it for lots of reasons. And I don't go around telling people they should become vegetarian. It's my choice and my choice alone. So I get annoyed when meat eaters start pulling the "pushy Christian" attitude and telling everyone else they are wrong. I do what's right for me and what I believe. End of story.

[End Rant]

Your forum is cool by the way. I like the idea... especially the recipe section. YUM! I hope that more people join, I've already pointed a few friends in that direction.

Beth

[edit: I just thought I'd mention that I was a little harsher than I normally would have been when writing this. I got this shot last month that's really wrecked my emotions up and it makes me sorta "lfhalkfjhuirn". But I still back up everything I said and I don't want to take it down. And I don't think it was an overreaction to the post... it just may have been too harsh. I know that anger doesn't win and argument but I'm still not too happy with that remark... *grumbles*]

[ June 02, 2001: Message edited by: Jezebel ]

[sacrelicious]

Wow. Can you say "major overreaction"?

[faustgfx]

fuck veggies. nuclear warheads for them all.

[-Gux-]

Ugh...vegetables, meat...
There is this guy who eats all sorts of things. He ate his bike he got for his birthday and even managed to eat a small airplane. It took him a year or so to do it(hey, I saw it on TV, it's true).

I'm hungry...

[Jezebel]

Let's swap roles here.

Someone comes into this thread after I've posted a link to a new Buddhist forum I started and says, "Being Buddhist is against God, and because it's against God it's probably a stupid idea to do it. Your beliefs are wrong because it's against Christianty and this is the right way to do things otherwise you will burn in hell."

Aka - Vegetarianism is against evolution and the food chain so it's not the greatest idea. (Vegetarians are stupid because they don't have the same beliefs I do). Well, that and I like weighing more than 90 pounds.
(Vegetarians are underweight and unhealthy.)

This is the exact same scenario. Except if the first one had happened everyone in RM would have pitched in and the thread would be 3 pages long by now. But just because I'm in the minority it's wrong to defend my beliefs - typical.

If this had been an issue that touched the lives of more people in this forum you wouldn't have said it was an overreaction. I deal with this crap all the time and it gets old. Even minor instances like these, and to me, this is a perfect place to vent about it since it IS random musings and it IS a thread about vegetarianism. I have a problem with people telling me that my choices are stupid, sorry you can't deal with that.

[Striker]

Mmm.. I shouldn't have looked into this thread, but hey, thanks for steppin on my toes.. I needed another dose of stereotype. blah...

"pulling the "pushy Christian" attitude"

Aaron

[Impaler]

Whoa. I echo sacrelicious' thoughts.

Vegetarian's aren't stupid. It's their choice to do so, and such as the fact that they're human beings, they can do it.

I went vegetarian for about 2.5 years a little while ago. I couldn't stand it. I didn't have the same energy that I used to have. I literally lost 15 pounds, even when I was supposed to be gaining weight. I couldn't eat all the foods that I used to love, and all of my "moral decisions" were viewed as hypocrisy by strict vegans (I still drank milk and ate eggs), and even more so by the eco-liberals who slam anyone who doesn't grow their own food in their garden.

The whole evolution thing was based upon the fact that the only reason that we are where are currently was because we were omnivorous. If we can eat the animals that would normally eat us, then we move up in the food chain. If we can eat everything, then we're at the top of the food chain. If we're at the top of the food chain, then we have no reason to worry about survival, and we can spend our time inventing and such. IT also means in time of a drought, we can eat animals to survive. This, however, does not justify genetically engineering animals to make them taste better and make their milk safer to drink. That is the one issue that I'm strongly opposed to, mostly because of the fact that there are some things in nature that you should not tinker with until you fully understand what you're doing. We CAN devote huge ranches to making a steady food supply for us, mostly because it's not only taking some responsibility for our past (5000 years ago) indiscretions. Cows aren't supposed to exist right now, theoretically. Raising a ranch of cows has about the same ecological problems as chopping down acres of trees to grow corn that will de-nitrate the soil in about 20 years. I also view it upon the fact that if, say, cockroaches were in our evolutionary niche, they would be doing the exact same thing. It's part of nature, albeit an odd one.

I also hope no one takes the posts in this thread as personal attacks against one's lifestyle, since attacking someone for their views on someone else's views is fairly hypocritical.

And I'm serious about the making 55% of Americans vegetarians.

[Jezebel]

Impaler - Thanks for expanding on your thoughts there... it makes it more clear what you're trying to say. Without knowing anything about you or your background, surely you can see how I would view your initial post as an insult to my beliefs - even if you weren't mean or pushy. I know you prolly think the shot thing is an excuse for me being snappy, I only wish it was. My boyfriend can speak for that, hehehehe. My post wasn't neseccarily aimed at just you... it was aimed at all the people I was getting crap from about this same topic last night when I read your post. Just an ironic occurance of events I guess. Mmm... I DO love a good debate

[Jezebel]

Striker - Totally hypocritical of me to drag the Christian thing into the debate but I was using it as an example since it's happened on this board several times before and most people can relate. I still love ya

[Striker]

aww *hugs*
*striker scampers off to the frige in search of something to carnivorize *

[elam]

I went to Poland about a month ago, and you know, in Poland all they eat are sausages and perogies and stuff, so I was eating Foot and Mad Mouth Cow disease infected meat for about 10 days.
If that isn't enough reason to become a vegitarian(not that I'm saying you SHOULD become one), I don't know what is.
But every once in a while and get this mad urge to scarf down some bacon, yum. But it usually passes.
I can't do Tofu though. Reminds me of Soylent Green.

[Justin Kramer]

quote:

---

I personally don't see anything wrong with eating meat. Not doing so is going against evolution and the food chain, which is something that is not the greatest idea.

---

Vegetarians aren't going against evolution; that's impossible. As products and constituents of nature, all humans are participating in evolution and can never not be.

Given all the health problems associated with meat eating, it seems vegetarians are actually doing more to adapt than carnivores these days!

The only way I could see the 'survival of the fittest' argument as holding any weight would be if killing/eating animals was necessary for our survival, which, in almost all circumstances, it's not.

quote

Quote:

Well, that and I like weighing more than 90 pounds.

Tell that to Steve Holt

quote

Quote:

I also hope no one takes the posts in this thread as personal attacks against one's lifestyle

ditto. Just randomly musing in response to random musings.

[SpiralEye]

Um, to me it seemed like Chris was trying to get the vegetarian viewpoint expressed, not criticize it.

[zero21]

I don't care what you eat, I don't care what you think of what I eat. As long as you don't eat me, Everything is cool.

We have an indian guy who is a vegetarian here at work. He has a wonderful house and is a really nice guy.

From time to time he will have a party at his house for us all to socialise and get together over a few drinks.

Standing office joke is that he always has a bar-b-q.
Flames, grill, and burning flesh.
Him and his wife always cook their vegetarian stuff and going over to his place is always cool cause you know that you'll be trying something new and yummy.
While he doesn't eat the steaks, etc, he does provide for us and there is plenty of recipie swapping at these functions.

We are never hungry and we have a good time.

I say discuss your beliefs and by all means debate, but respect the other persons as having the right to their own.

No matter what the meal is, or what you choose to eat, the main reason is coming together to enjoy each others company.

*zero21 looks out the window for the "sushi-guy" who obviously missed visiting our building today*

[Tiger Eaten]

Oh God. You know why people tend to get all ruffled over vegetarian lifestyles and certain vegetarian individuals? It's exactly because of these kinds of comments.

Eating meat is:

A: Bad for the enviroment.
B: Cruel to animals.
C: Unhealthy.

Thus, if I eat meat I am therefore:

A: Bad for the enviroment.
B: Cruel to animals.
C: Unhealthy.


Then I am told simply that "Of course I don't have anything against people who eat meat, its their choice. If you want to do that go right ahead."

Vegetarians often feel like they are under attack and can't understand why some people (meat eaters) don't love to hear all of these negative things said about their lifestyle.

These comments:

"I get pretty damn tired of non-veggies trying to "justify" eating meat when nobody is even telling them it's wrong."

"Nobody is telling you what's right or wrong."

"there's no reason to get all defensive about it"

"nobody is telling you to do something"


Followed by these comments:

"I think eating meat is both disgusting and unhealthy."

"better for the environment."

"pollution wouldn't be as much of a problem."

"I don't just do it for me, I do it for lots of reasons."


........Makes my head spin. How could anyone not take offense? And then to claim that vegetarians are always under attack.....

I eat and enjoy meat in portions that are sensible. I don't believe we all need to sit down to a big steak every night but I think meat plays an important role in maintaining health. I DO think that everyone should visit their local slaughter house and SEE EXACTLY where their meat comes from, watch a few animals die and UNDERSTAND how this world works. Give some thought and eat with some appreciation for what it is.

I am using you as an example Jez (so please don't get ticked at me), I don't mean to stomp on you per say. This is more directed to some personal friends of mine that from time to time drive me crazy as they try to "NOT PUSH THEIR VIEWS."


I would also like to say that I disagree Impaler on that bit about genetic engineering. That kind of attitude is turning your back on one of the potentially greatest achievments man has ever made. Caution is required yes; but don't dismiss it so easily and out of hand. (And btw, they've been doing it to your food for years so I woulden't get too worked up over it.)

[Jezebel]

Tiger Eaten - I won't get ticked at you, lol... but I am allowed to say my beliefs. Those are the reasons I am a vegetarian. And I gave my reasons after someone else had said that (or so I thought) my reasons for being a vegetarian were stupid. So yes, I did feel I was being attacked and there are plenty of times that I am. Not by everyone of course, but by a lot of people yes. The thing is that most people don't realize they do it, and or they think it's ok. My own family and closest friends are guilty of doing. They are not trying to be mean, but they are making me feel as though they think their lifestyle is better than mine. That's not such a great feeling I in no way shape or form told you that I think you (or anyone here) should stop eating meat, but I DO believe those things and it is my right to do what I like is it not? And if it's ok for Imp to state that he believes veggism is against evolution and the food chain, can't I state that I disagree and follow up with what I believe? He took the time to say why he felt most people were vegetarian as well, so that opened the door for me to then say why I personally was a vegeroo. I just sorta feel that your argument is very one-sided and you're not allowing it to work both ways.

Beth

[edit: I just thought I add that in regards to vegetarians pushing their views... I honestly don't know a single vegetarian who does. I never have. Now I have read of vegetarians online that start these crazy websites to send them out to meat-eaters everywhere to make them feel horrible - I think that's wrong. In the same way that I think anti-abortion protestors shouldn't stand around elementary schools with giant pictures of dead babies. But the thing is, most people who eat meat talk about their diet all the time, "Mmm... meat. God I don't know how you can be a vegetarian, I love meat. Meat meat meat!" Most of the people I know have said this to me at least once since I went veg. They say it jokingly to me, and I don't really think much of it because I understand how they feel. It was not easy to go veg for me. But then if I say something afterwards like, "It's not a big deal, I like it because it makes me feel good about things." They tend to take that (as you probably do too) as me "pushing my beliefs" and making other people feel guilty... when really I'm just talking about myself. But the thing is, it's ok for meaties to do it, but it's not ok for veggies to do it. That's the whole point I was getting at originally. I can't say anything without "pushing my beliefs" and that's not right to me... I should be allowed to discuss my lifestyle without being accused of putting other people down.[/edit]

[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Jezebel ]

[SpiralEye]

Jezebel--"most people don't realize they do it" Then, they are not 'attacking' your lifestyle. That is a case where overlooking others' actions is a grat aid to one's own peace.

"They are not trying to be mean, but they are making me feel as though they think their lifestyle is better than mine. That's not such a great feeling " No, it's not such a great feeling. But, if they don't intend to, a better response (IMO) is to communicate it in a calm manner (if they care about your feelings) or completely ignore the incident (if they don't care about your feelings.

Just my two cents.

[Enayla]

I've been a vegetarian since I was ten years old. That choice was not initially mine, but rather my parents'. I didn't really care WHY I was a vegetarian at the time, though... it didn't seem to matter to me. My parents didn't really explain their choice to any great extent and I didn't mind. I never much liked meat to begin with.

However... as I grew up, and all the way through my teenage years and even now, people badgered me about it. Bullied me, even. I never said a word about why I had become a vegetarian. I've never tried to push my beliefs on anyone. A lot of people don't even realise that I'm a vegetarian unless we happen to go out eat together... or if the subject is discussed. I won't bring it up because I see no reason to, and because I feel so tired of having to defend something like that. It's food. Why is it anyone's business but mine? I rarely speak of my views of vegetarianism versus meat eating unless I'm cornered and bugged about it. I will defend my views if someone attacks me. And man oh man, I get attacked ALL the time.

I think that a lot of young people becoming vegetarians have an unnecessarily aggressive attitude towards those who eat meat... I /do/ think, however, that a LOT of people who have been vegetarians for a longer while, like me, can become very aggressive when attacked about it because we're getting fed up with it. We ARE a minority. A minority has to be able to defend itself against constant criticism. I was going to stay out of this discussion but I decided against it...

I'm bored with the subject and I really hate talking about vegetarianism or meat eating or whatever (I've been forced to discuss it since I was ten years old. I'm starting to have a problem with being polite even to my friends when they start going off about it)... I think I'll just turn cannibal soon... heheh.

(Edit) I should've just stayed in bed...*yawn*

[ June 04, 2001: Message edited by: Enayla ]

[Impaler]

I agree with Enayla, until she starts eyeing me up and down while she polishes her silver fork.

It's just food. Eat what you want, I'd say. Somehow, people manage to freak out over it. It's become almost a religious thing, and I think it represents both side very poorly. Omnivores slam herbies because the herbies slam the omnivores because the omnivores slam the herbies and so on and so forth. Omnivores attack with mindless attacks like "sapling" "tree hugger" and "fruity wuss fag" (I was called that second one during my veggie days). Herbies call omnivores "horrible monsters" and "ravagers of the environment" and "immoral idiots".

I have no idea how it got to this, or why it got to this. You never see anyone slamming someone else for not liking mustard on their hot dogs.

Some Postulations:

1) Some zealots decided to stop eating vegetables, because it's the True Christian (tm) Way. Carnivorous bible thumpers argued that the head deity put animals here for us to eat, and therefore the veggies are heathen.

2) When someone gives up something that is majorly important in everyday Western culture, such as meat or organized religion, an odd series of events happen. The defectors call the others mindless drones and lots of other mean names, whereas the mainstreamers call the defectors "freaks" and such. Much argumentation occurs, and you get a heated issue.

3) Everybody that's not a vegetarian at heart is secretly a cattle rancher, and the more people that switch sides, the less money we get from trade. If we make vegetarianism a bad thing, then less people will do it.

Endpostulations.

Also, I rescind the whole evolutionary line, seeing as we as a species have basically reached a physical evolutionary stasis, meaning we don't need to eat meat to hold our niche. We're rock solid at the top of the ladder, unless we all go vegan, in which case we're screwed.

COME ON! MORE SUPPORT!! 55% of AMERICA MUST GO VEGETARIAN! NO MORE FAT PEOPLE!

[Chris]

sorry, was just asking a simple question (so i thought )

anyway, i eat meat, i don't really see a problem with it. i don't believe eating meat is at all unhealthy. it provides a lot of things our body needs. and tell me if i am wrong, but don't vegans need to take some sort of vitimens to substitute for the lack of protein missing from your diet.

i respect the vegans belief, but to say meat is unhealthy isn't correct, it is unhealthy if you slap cheese and ketchup and mustard and bread and mcdee's special sause that is unhealthy.

[balistic]

STOPS MAKeING ME HUNGRY!!1!!!!!11

[Ragnarok]

I have to agree with chris here. Eating meat isn't unhealthy imo. It gives us things we need, but those who aren't veggies can have a equilibrated diet.
I don't eat a lot of meat, but I eat it because in my opinion it's good. If you don't like it you can look for substitutes.
And we're always talking about red meats, but what about fish?
And egg, and milk...

Being veggie isn't unhealthy, but probably it's harder to find a variety of products that substitute the omnivore diet.

[Disclaimer: I'm not vegetarian, therefore I can be wrong when talking about them.]

[edit]Interesting how a thread about a forum turned into a "What do you think about being vegetarian?" thread... well, this is random musings[/edit]

[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

[Justin Kramer]

I often find myself trying to walk a fine line when discussing vegetarianism. On the one hand, I do not want to force my beliefs onto others; other the other hand, I do not agree that "it's just food". I think eating meat is not merely a lifestyle/ideological choice, but also a moral choice: unlike having a religious or political affiliation or sexual orientation, etc., eating meat has victims--animals suffer and/or are deprived of life to support the activity. It's not the same as simply holding a belief.

The way I try to go about discussing the issue is to present reasoned arguments and, while not sugar-coating it, strive to avoid being heavy handed. Being judgemental (e.g., "you're all blood-thirsty neanderthals!") is counter-productive--it makes people defensive and doesn't accomplish anything. So I try to respect people even though I may strongly disagree with them.

I rarely bring up the topic myself -- when I discuss it it's usually in response to someone else's question or statement. E.g., I saw Impaler saying there's nothing wrong with eating meat, which I disagree with, so I responded with my perspective. I generally try to talk with people about it, not at them.

quote

Quote:

We're rock solid at the top of the ladder, unless we all go vegan, in which case we're screwed.

Why is that? We'll be overrun by farm animals or something?

quote

Quote:

i don't believe eating meat is at all unhealthy. it provides a lot of things our body needs.

Red meat is not very healthy, and contributes to a lot of health problems these days. White meat isn't bad, but there are more humane ways of getting the kinds of nutrients it provides.

quote

Quote:

and tell me if i am wrong, but don't vegans need to take some sort of vitimens to substitute for the lack of protein missing from your diet.

It's not difficult to get enough protein from a balanced vegan diet, much less vegetarian. That's an old myth. Ditto for calcium. The only thing that is somewhat difficult to get naturally is vitamin B12, which can be gotten either from supplements or things like nutritional yeast and pre-made vegan products.

[Subhuman]

Fuck all of you carnivores, herbivores and omnivores! You are all murderers! If your not killing poor defensless animals, then it's poor defensless plants. Are plants not alive, do they not breathe (you know in that weird co2 -> oxygen, or whatever way it is). They are living creatures too.

In case you are wondering I'm an inorganic-ivore (i don't feel like looking up the real word) its all about plastics and metals, hey they might not taste as good, but Im more moral than any of you can say you are.

[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: Subhuman ]

[Chris]

u know what we need. a single food...one that supplies every single thing we need, protein, vitemins, EVERYTHING, in a good tasting paste or harden format.

kindof like the matrix, remember that paste thing, only it tastes good and maybe would come in different flavors, etc.

THAT way, everyone would be eating the same thing 3 times a day and we wouldn't have to worry about all this.

i mean what is eating? it isn't meant for us to enjoy, the soul purpose to eat is to keep us living and that is the cycle of it.

[Subhuman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris:
kindof like the matrix, remember that paste thing, only it tastes good and maybe would come in different flavors, etc.

---

Dude:

1. "The Matrix" is a retarded movie.

2. The paste you talk about is, in fact, dead people.

[Pringle]

I like vegeterians, they're just so uhm -tasty