[feebsaint]

Man... I still have a bad taste in my mouth...

Have you ever seen someone, and instantly thought they were a jerk, or simply overly egocentric? I mean... by looks alone? I try not to judge people, but I just did... and what's worse, is that it's from his self portraits! I really went off on him, unprovoked (unless you count those paintings as a rage provoking tool). Have a look, and please let me know if I'm turning into a prick. SAVE MEEEE!

I was viscious... Here's the link.

Just so you know... I don't normally do this... this is a special case... and somehow, I can't feel guilty for it!

[Jock McxSporran]

I think you went well beyond critique and into the realms of personal abuse. How you feel about that will depend on how bad you think your comments made the guy feel and how much of a conscience you possess.

At least you were honest though

[S4Sb]

I really appreciate it that you have such a high rate of constructive posts in the last few days. You really teach at the moment. I hope you will continue with this.

I think you can bring in your opinion as well. Especially when you help that much primarily

[Jezebel]

Whoa Mike... I know I don't know you personally but I never would have thought you the type to say something like that to a stranger

I hope you don't crit my self port

We've all had moments like that though. I am an extremely shy person, I never stick up for myself and I tend to let people walk all over me and take all sorts of abuse. I'm just a total pansy, hehe. But sometimes here in random musings I find that I say jump into a debate that I would never ever get into in person. Half the time I won't even get into it online, but sometimes I just sorta snap at people. Recently (the last month) I just started doing this, I never really did it before but it's due to this reaction I had to a shot I got. It's sorta weird when I find myself saying that I'm pissed off at someone because it's not my in character at all. Of course it's much easier to do online...

[starfish]

Yo feebsaint!

well, if you feel you might have hurt someone
you prolly have.
it's easy to crit someone else and tell them
that they should do this or that, what people
often miss in the process is to reflect on
the style the 'artist' is working with.
it's very common to see people say that
'you need to shade it this or that way'.
by saying that, without giving a good thought
on if the style of the 'work' will benefit
from it, there is a big risk that the person
criticising it thinks of the final 'work' in
a style that the 'artist' didn't set out to adopt.
it's similar to what happens when someone
says 'hey, I would give that chick
bigger hooters' when criticising a sketch or
painting. that is more of wanting the artist
to satisfy your own taste than actually
helping the 'work'.

though, feebsaint, nothing is so bad that
it can't be corrected =D
apologize if you feel that you should.

just some thoughts on the subject

*hands feebsaint a really soft marshmallow* =)

[ June 17, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[burn0ut]

its good, cause then the person will be pissed at you then work harder at it to get it right the next time!

...........

[Socar MYLES]

Well, the crit of the work itself wasn't too harsh, and it seemed to be full of useful advice. I'm not sure how on-target your interpretation of the portraits was, but if that's the impression you got from them, then the artist might benefit from knowing that. I had a painting class a couple of terms ago, and one lady in that class was forever telling me that my work advocated violence against women. I didn't think that was true, and neither did most of my classmates (or the teacher), but I was glad to get her opinion anyway. I always like to know how people interpret my work, because sometimes the message they see is NOT what I was trying to project, which means I didn't make things clear enough, which furthermore means that I have to think of new ways to get the point across.

So, yes, I think that your interpretation of the...what? Mood? Tone? ...of the portraits was valid as far as critique is concerned, since it is valuable for artists to know what people are getting from their work. Perhaps you could have worded it a little more tactfully, but really, I don't think the guy's going to live or die over one crit. So, if you feel bad, make a quick apology, or send him a private message to the effect of 'no hard feelings, eh?'--otherwise, just forget about it. You do good crits, and there's no point obsessing over what's already been said.

[feebsaint]

socar MYLES... whoah... it's like you read my mind... I just came back here to let everyone know that I've added a post in this guy's thread. I've emailed him, apologized, and asked him if he'd like for me to remove the comments. I go over other things about what I had said, but you're right... I could have worded it more tactfully. Sometimes tact and I are best friends, and sometimes we don't see each other for days. Last night was such a time.

That having been said, I'm grateful to all of your opinions, and respect the hell out of them. Also, I am frankly surprised the comments against my post, were so tame. I hardly deserve being treated so well, after last night's goings-on. Again, thanks for your opinions. I embrace them all. ("embrace them all" ... how cheesy did that sound?)

[Sc00p-]

I think this whole thread is more about having people say nice things so you don't feel so bad for being a jerk in that reply, instead of actually feeling bad about it. Just simply apologize, or go with what you said...

If you are going to rail on someone in a post, at least be true about it and not
bring it to huge attention in your own thread so you can hope that the people feel sorry for you saying those things. Thats what I'm getting from all this.

Basically, if you're gonna say something mean to someone, mean it, or deal with the mental anguish yourself. It's Topiera that should be writing a post saying "what the fuck?", not you.

Make sense? Maybe, maybe not, Im not really sure at this point :) Anyway, just thought I'd be the one guy that's not holding your hand, saying "there there, it's okay, but instead saying "yes, you did a bad thing". Not that it's a horrible thing, and there's no shame in being a prick now and then, lord knows I always am.

[feebsaint]

er... Sc00p... yer way off base. My intentions were nowhere near that. I don't come here to get coddled, merely to raise the question, 'was I way off base?' and, 'what's your opinion on judging people on sight?'

of course it's your right to think whatever you want of me, as this is exactly what i did to this topeia fella. i'm wondering if i'm justified, or whatever. it's a random musing... hence, the thread.

well, i'm glad you've stated your opinion. i need no hand holding, especially from a guy! yuck!

it was, however, such a curious topic, that i wanted other's opinions about whether or not i'm considered a jerk, and i left myself open for a roasting... but i needed to get people's opinions. i figured on there being a lot of opinions that i was, in fact, a jerk... and was shocked to find so many thought otherwise. don't worry, i'm moving on from this.

i also find myself being a jerk on occasion, and i realize it's human... but in this case, i wasn't really sure that this was the case. shit, now i'm rambling. hope you get the point. thanks for the post... it helped me clear that up (sorta).

[edit] Sc00p, I also wanted to say, I really agree with what you said, about apologizing and moving on, or sticking with what I said. I hate people who are wishy-washy, but this was a definite gray area for me... and I hope you can appreciate that. :\

[ June 17, 2001: Message edited by: feebsaint ]

[Sc00p-]

Being a jerk IS fun.

And yes, I do appreciate the grey-area thing, I see your point. Just letting you know what I thought anyway, my opinion's not any better than anyone elses.

Take care

[Blitz]

Now Im scared to show Mike my work...
What if I accidentally posted a self portrait.
OOPS

OH NO!!!
Im Dead..Mike is gana KILL ME..>WHAAAAA

HEHE...KIDN BRO..
I didn’t think it was that bad. In fact From what Ive seen you’ve been handing out some of the best crits on the bored lately. Your doing good. I have no problem with you.
Why would anyone. You say what you feel.
That is cool. I like the story of you and the old man on the island. How he gave you hard truthful crits. Thats what I like. I wish I knew an old man on an island. Giving good truthful crits are great. Most of us as young artist like my self really appreciate and want a hard strong crit from someone of your caliber. Sure when someone is REALY YOUNG and drawing it can be best to crit but also pamper them a bit..keep their confidence up. But at my stage of drawing, I am preparing to become a competitive illustrator. I dont need pampering, NONE...I dont want it, I want to know what is wrong right now so I can fix it. You are A-OK in my book. And I think I have a good Book. Yes, It is bound quite nicely. Good cover..Yes, your good in my book.
I hope some of that made since...It might have, ah I dont care, Im to lazy to reread hehe. =P

Seeyas MIKE...WHEEEE

Oh and the self port up there is OLD..hehe

Blitz

[Tinusch]

Hahaha, I've seen that picture so many times and I still love it

[exo13]

It's funny... I'm ONLY polite to people on the internet. But my everday life? Umm, to say that I give the occasional verbal thrashing would be an understatement.

Just kidding... At least I think so.

[Chris]

I thought it was a little harsh.

although you provided critique, you pretty much told him how he should show himself in a self portrait.

there are no rules to drawing a self-portrait, either showing anger, or happiness, or cheering on a team.

what does it matter?

I think he really just wanted critique and not a view on what emotion he should be drawing.

if you took out these comments, it would have been a good reply:

quote:

---

Have fun with them, and try not to show us, in your portraits, how suave or how ragingly cool you must think you are, because frankly, you look somewhere between silly and creepy...

but someone who's trying too hard is always seen as trying too hard. Especially taking all that care to show how nicely you've trimmed your goatee.

The second one is particularly something people will roll their eyes at.

You look like someone who is WAY too serious about their favorite football team making a touchdown.

Do a portrait of yourself that isn't creepy, and you're half way there. BTW... not creepy scary... it's more like, creepy in how eccentric your self image/ego seems to be.

---

[Chris]

btw, if you feel guilty, you probably are...

[Pat]

feeb, you lightweight. You call that a crit? You wouldn't last 2 seconds in one of my college crit sessions. Stop mollycoddling! Creating art is a messy business! It sometimes surprises me how the dilettantes sit around and congratulate themselves in some kind of mutal appreciation society. These people aren't interested in your criticism and, frankly, probably aren't worthy of it. When you're serious about art, you learn to drop the pretense of politeness in favor of getting to the meat of the matter. Unfortunately, not everyone around here is serious about art.

It's hard enough to get someone to comment these days, let alone cough up some decent criticism. That said, ALL contributions are welcome around here. Don't forget that others will read and learn from that artist's mistakes --so a good crit can be more valuable to the group than the individual. Taking criticism is an requisite skill for artists --but ironically the artists who attract the most criticism are the least experienced, and often the most likely to misinterpret your good intentions.

Since this is a public forum with both serious artists and dabblers, tact is still important. I always reserve the hot stuff for people I've seen on the forum more often. 1) This rewards people for posting a lot and 2) I kinda know them and vice versa --so it "feels" like criticism and not a personal attack.

I side-step this issue a lot of times by reposting their pic with my paint-overs. That way the evidence is right there for them to judge. That also shows my interest is focused on the work, not in insulting or belittling the artist.

Just some thoughts...

-Pat

[feebsaint]

Thanks, Chris, but those sentences stay. It was harsh, but only to drive the point home. I realize there is no standard format for portraiture, but there is a strong distaste for some uses of it, as I pointed out, and don't back down on.

The matter wasn't whether my advice was wrong, but whether I was overly harsh, which I admit, I was... but don't feel 'guilty' for pointing out those topics you would have me remove. Those are the core sentences toward my conviction.

If you removed these words from your post, it would probably be good:

quote

Quote:

btw, if you feel guilty, you probably are...

[edit]...pack your bags, we're goin' on a guilt trip.

[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: feebsaint ]