[raupe]

spooge this is sad. Don't let your joy of creating things be destroyed by people who try to make money with you because other people worship you like a popstar and will pay a lot for anything they can get their hands on.

I don't want to imagine how hard it is having to evaluate everybody for their possible intentions. And not knowing who really likes you and who only pretends. And always meeting people who admire everything you put your name on...

[Vortx]

Hey Craig,

yeah, i was a little surprised when i found out the tape of all this is not going to be free. However, i think the person who held this is producing the CD himself...out of his own pocket...and selling it directly to others. But now you mention it....YOU ARE right about the profit thing. I should've thought it out myself....because i did this whole thing for free! Someone else is going to profit from this demo. And about Art Center....you are right as well...Art DOES own everything the students make while attending school....so i guess they have the profit rights to this CD. Sux. I didn't think of this before hand either....i just thought it would be a cool little demo for the students to see. The pictures of your demo are for the artists in this forum to see....and in no way should anyone here trying to profit from that....only to learn.

I guess it's not too late to stop the tape for distribution.....lets hope we can put an end to this.

-feng

[Leon]

[Frost]

Craig: You're a very kind and giving guy, unfortunately, people exploit. I don't have any good sides to point to, aside from the fact that your generosity has helped and continues to help us all evolve and become more efficient artists.

These are very tough things to deal with, where the very people you go out of your way to help bite off more than you offer them.

Shit world.

Best regards my friend.

[Dan3d]

Hello Craig,

I have only recently (today) come to this forum and I am very sad to hear what has happened to you. Though I am new to this forum, I am not new to your work. I've been to your site many times. I am also an artist, though I have spent a lot of my time creating real-time 3D models and environments. Lately I have turned to learning concept art. Artwork like yours (and quite a few others, like Feng, etc.) always inspire me and always teach me something. So, from the outset, I want to thank you for your contribution to us all simply by posting your work on the net.

What the Art Center did to you was wrong, but I would ask you to not be discouraged by it. The world is a messed up place and it seems that more bad then good happens. Don't let that get you down. Be one of the few that will continue to be good and do good. Go against the flow, so to speak. By doing so (IMHO) you will do even more to set an example for all who admire your work and desire to truly learn from it.

On the other hand, you are only human and cannot possibly expect to answer each and every request that comes to you. So don't . Possibly post a disclaimer (if you haven't already) on you site stating that you cannot possibly answer all E-mails that come to you.

In any case, I hope that you did not mind me posting this. I would really like to encourage YOU somehow, especially since you have encouraged me (and you don't even know it!).

I started taking art classes in college, but, like an idiot, I dropped out after 6 months. I was rather rebellious and figured I knew better. Yeah, right ! I am now 35, married and have 4 kids. I have no time to attend college. I wanted to get out of sales and do art for a living. Yeah, right! No training, no real portfolia and no time to get an education. Still, I self trained myself. I read books. I went to web sites. I studied. Now I am a 3D graphic artist and web site developer! Its because of people like you who post examples and web sites that I have been able to do this. So, I need to thank you and many, many others.

Now, I desire to concentrate more on concept art. I love the style. I am still learning. People like you will continue to influence me. Please do not loose your enthusiasm and please keep participating. Maybe one day I'll have an awesome portfolio and people will be bugging me all the time !

In any case, here is a link to my web site:
http://www.web2d3.com

Not a lot is there currently. Some stuff is still under NDA at work. Also, here is one of my first concepts:

The first is the initial sketch done in Photoshop:



This second is the colored image:



As you can see, I still have a lot to learn, but some of these guys (over at the concept art forum) are beating me up to help me get it right!

In any case, keep the faith!

[Akolyte]

Damn, I just wanted to see more pics. Craig, please do not feel discouraged by our enthusiasm for your work. Here at Sijun, you have a celebrity status, and we celebrate your work and embrace your awesome tips and suggestions. I hope noone tries to exploit your good deeds for their own profit, which would obviously piss anyone off. I hope this recent episode of events does not restrain you from interacting with fellow artists here at Sijun, as your input and direction is an injection of class that gives this artistic community a unique flavor.

[dr . bang]

Craig, I'm really shocked to hear this. From the past, i've never seen you're this sad before. Any way, i think you should put a disclaimer or make up a FAQ section so all the anoying people won't mail you any more. If you still get anoying mail, i suggest you remove your email from your site for a few days, let it cool off and then put it back again. I hope that helps and i really hope you feel better. If you need any help with anything about this, just ask me or the good people in this board, i'm sure they would love to help out the masta of the univarse, Spooge.

[Francis]

Suck it up dude. There will always be bottom feeders around to exploit greatness (not talking about the videotaper here, but the more abstract "them.") - it's a waste of your time to agonize over someone else's shortcomings. I know I'm overlooking quite a lot with that statement, but it's how I feel. There are more important things for you to do than to try to second guess the actions of self interested money mongering institutions. Where that stuff is concerned, they will always be better at exploitation, because it's what they do, and not what we (as artists) do.

I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know, but it's been my experience that you can either work on your business/legal kung fu or your art kung fu. In spite of it all, I'd rather work on my art kung fu.

Sorry for this - when I first heard about it, it sounded like a great opportunity to share something cool and I was very excited. When you brought up the whole distribution/profit/control thing it put me in a bad mood - not because of what you said but more because it reminded me of all the similar stupid nonsense I've come across myself in dealing with art as a profession.

I'm bummed, but I fully support your wanting to shut the lid on the cd thing. I just wish we could exist in a place where everyone had the maturity (for lack of a better word) to just do each other right and not try to take advantage of every little thing for the sake of a few more dollars.

Ah here comes the nurse with my medication. See you later.

[ June 05, 2001: Message edited by: Francis ]

[Steven Stahlberg]

You could go further than a disclaimer or FAQ - it would take some work but not necessarily by you, and it might be worth it because let's face it - the internet is growing and you're only going to get more famous.

Have someone you trust write all the text on your website. Have them write it so it's clearly written by them, ABOUT you, not by you. Like Frank Frazetta's site, written by Frank Jr. That frees you up to put text that would seem rude or whiny to the newcomers if it had been written by you. It will still have been okayed by you, but... you know what I mean. It will be signed with somebody else's name.

They can write things like "Craig's inbox is clogged daily with x amount of emails..." and "after years of trying to answer as many emails as possible he has decided to concentrate on his art..." stuff like that, all over the site.

Then, if you still feel you want your email adress on your site, put it only in one single place, and have it go to a warning-page first, with a BIG disclaimer/FAQ etc: PLEASE READ THIS CHECKLIST BEFORE YOU EMAIL kinda thing. I did something similar, and it worked wonders for my fan mail.

Don't let them get you down...

Steven

[quaternius]

Craig -
Thanks for the clarification on the situation. I'll cross that CD off the list - artists' rights are trampled on every day, I know mine have been - and I certainly won't knowingly help the rip-off.

Bummer how generosity gets turned around sometimes. Don't let the bastards wear you down - or take away your joy. I really hope you can figure out a solution and put this behind you.

[Sumaleth]

Sounds like Spooge needs a personal assistant. Apart from writing a book I'm not doing anything.

Row.

[Snake Grunger]

I PITY THE FOO' WHO MESS WITH Craig.

This example is not directed solely to Craig, but everyone else too. I think I come to a fine conclusion on why life is worth living, or something.

I can honestly understand what you are going through. About 2 weeks ago, I sold a Sony Playstation 2 on eBay. The buyer pays with a online paying website and asks me to deliver the merchandise to his brother in Montreal (where I live) because it was his birthday. To make a long story short, he insulted me because I didn't promptly answer his emails, I gave the PS2 to his "brother", guy never replies to emails anymore, and the website takes away my money because the guy was a fraud. The guy had created fake accounts everywhere, the phone number on eBay didn't work, there was no P. Holt in Ohio, hotmail account, etc.

I never felt that bad torwards myself for not having taken the time to analyse the whole situation. There I go, losing 300$, over something that could have been avoided if I had been smart. This is the bad side of concentrating on painting (or any other passion). You lose your whole sense of "Other people exist in society.", because in the world you bathe in, people like that don't exist.

Even though I was hyper depressed during that short period, (you know, a feeling where you feel totally weak and you realize there's nothing you can do to fix it, I don't know if that's depression, but my brain was just suddenly in off-mode), I then thought about the other things that make me happy, music and reading Sijun and playing some Dodgeball in MAME32. Then my brain switches back to ON mode. After closer thought of my current situation, I think of how much the person who commited that crime, at one point in his life, will have to deal with the thought of being (or having been) responsible for such dreadful actions his whole life. The pain he will suffer from realizing that, is, or will be, far greater than what I suffered. In the end, I feel like pitying them.

Like Steven mentionned, I really think it's a good idea that you write a short FAQ to answer the "general questions" they may have, and warnings before they send you e-mail, to try and scare off the would-be-"worth reading"-email-writers.

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Snake Grunger ]

[Freddio]

working links Craig?

[DiXter]

I'm so sorry to hear that Spooge..

I't must be very frustrating to be in your position and not be able to do something about it.

[Gimbal8]

I feel bad if I have trouble understanding or implementing something that someone like Craig has offered to explain. I feel embarrased when I post something without putting enough time and effort into it when someone like Craig has taken the time and effort to offer his guidance. And I feel guilty for not having anything to offer back to people like Craig who have offered so much.

So when I read "I feel it draining away my enthusiasm for participating here, teaching in general, and even artwork as a whole." I feel really sad. It would be sad to not see him participate here, and a great loss to many potential students if he stopped teaching. But for him to become disenchanted with artwork as a whole because of the never ending deluge of crappy people...well that is an absolute travesty.

[Spooge-Taper]

Salutations

It is I, the notorious Spooge Demon demo taper. I think that, since there is a dialogue going on about Spooge, Art Center, and myself, it is only appropriate that I comment on the issue to fill in the blanks.

My intention was never to make a personal profit off of the tapes. There are two reasons I was even selling them to begin with. One, I had hoped to invite Doug Chiang to come to ACCD to lead a similar workshop which would demand way more money (airfare, rental car, and hotel) then my pithily budget would allow, and two the demo would cost money to produce and I am a student with very little money of my own. Originally, I told Spooge that we could sell them to donate the money to charity or something, which was and still is 100% ok with me. I think that I left out the part about Doug Chiang and emphasized the donation, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I needed the money for Chiang. I think that I was not clear enough about this with Spooge on this issue and I am very sorry if for this reason he feels manipulated or misled. If I had to do this over I would have been crystal clear about my intentions. I would like to think that, since I was writing so many emails at the time that I simply overlooked telling him. But in all honesty, I may have conveniently forgotten; I will certainly have to give this issue more thought. As I read through our correspondence I realize how vague and presumptive I really was. God, It's such a trip, I thought I would learn a little about painting and a little about organizing this weekend. Was I ever blown away by the whole experience as an artist as a person.

I would like to make explicitly clear a couple of details. If Spooge had asked me not to sell them or to distribute them freely or give the money to a charity I would have complied and would still comply gladly. I feel that he did me a great honor from the first reply to my invitation to speak at ACCD. I would have never willingly given any of the money to ACCD as he had asked. I have suggested to Feng that he also reconsider his position on releasing the tapes. If I could have it my way at this point I would put Spooge's entire demo on Goodbrush.com and Feng’s entire demo on Artbyfeng.com and make them freely available to everyone, not just ACCD students.

I have done my best to be honorable throughout the past weeks. Sometimes we cannot foresee how our actions will affect other people; hell, a lot of the time I cannot even foresee how my actions will affect myself! I think that we do our best and, when we make "mistakes" we learn what we need to learn from the consequences of those mistakes. It is a paradigm for painting and for life

Very sincerely,
Ari Bilow,
IDSA Student Representative for ACCD

[Darkmoon]

p1r4t3 33t

make their sales 0$ and give it away for free

its the sp00ge napster!!!!!!!

*hugs spooge*
sorry about you know... the human race... where most of em are just out for money

[Ed Lee]

quote:

---

Originally posted by spooge demon:
that makes people think I am a great big dickhead.

---

Heh...I don't think you're a dickhead.. Craiggy...I think those who try to take advantages of the artists are the dickheads..sittt, I even ran across few myself. Anyway, hope things work out fer ya. Oh BTW, sorry I missed your demo - I was shopping wit my g/f...I couldn't get away - you know how that is?.....oh mon...OK, gotta drink some sittt under da sink now... Edsta-- 2G+1

[c]

"Nowhere on their stationary does it say a non-profit institution."

in the artcenter catalog it states that it is a non-profit school.

wish i could have attended the seminar! if only i had known sooner. i take night classes ^_^.

[Awetopsy]

... bummer.

Spooge: you could sell anything and I would never consider you anywhere near a money-grubber. You are a very talented artist and your teaching is something that I and a number of other people find very valuable and useful. I guess alot of us would be willing to pay for knowledge from such talent as yourself. We admire your work a great deal and would personally love the opportunity to learn in a video tutorial of sorts.

Spooge-taper: I think it was very wise and considerate of you to come here and clarify this whole thing. It shows respect for Spooges feelings. So why not contact Spooge and work something out so that we can see this tape, if Spooge isnt opposed to the idea.

Personally I would love to get the tutorial work of one of my favorite line artists and my favorite painter in one video. I think it would be great to have Vortx and Spooge's video up for download. Its certain that so many of us would learn alot. But only if Spooge is willing.

[Anthony]

You can have it that way Ari. Leak it to someone here, and it'll be spread pretty quickly. If that's what Craig wants of course. My hands are already a little dirty with Loomis *cough* :]

[Ragnarok]

After reading through all this, I think the best option for this thing is that they talk together (three of them) and solve the problem.
And we should be happy with whatever solution they think of.

[WICKED]

Urg I didn't know there was a second page, guess I missed a few things when writting this, but I'm going to leave it up because I dont feel like deleting what I took time in writing.
--------------------------------------------
Hmmmm, I believe there is a way to stop cd distribution. While maybe the art center owns all their students art work, you do not go to the art center. I imagine you signed some sort of contract with the people that resquested you to come. If the contract dosen't have anything about selling cd's then you can nail them for it, or if there was no contract you can also hit them from that angel, because they are distributing cds without your permision.

I was hoping I could see you guys working. I thought the cd was going to be free, or maybe if we payed it went to both you and feng for your time and the people that are publishing it. If you are upset by what is happening then I would rather not have one. I think we should all ban against buying the cd if it does go for sale, since I would rather see Spooge doing his awsome work and giving tips to people even if he never looks at one of my post. Because even though it's not my work up there that is being critiqued and given tips for, I still learn from peoples advice.

Lets support a fellow artist and member to the forum. Don't buy the cd.

[ June 07, 2001: Message edited by: WICKED ]

[klash.jr]

Yeah dude your right.

But damn i really would of love to see them in action. DAmn it it's already made so why no not share it with us? Let it be free.

[Frost]

Using Spooge to make money to pay Doug Chiang... I find this concept a little sick (sorry), and for Doug Chiang, of all people.

If Doug can't be bothered to share and give out of his own free will, then let him be to his lesser self. I don't see him being more deserving than Craig. Sorry.


PS - Spooge-Taper: None of this was against you personally, as I understand how each and everyone of us usually does things without backing up and taking a look at the bigger picture. It made sense, but was ethically wrong in my oppinion, planned or not; but as I said, we're all guilty of falling to such things once in a while, so don't take this personally.

[ June 07, 2001: Message edited by: Frost ]

[Snake Grunger]

Doug Chiang couldn't draw his way out of a paper bag.

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: Snake Grunger ]