[Liquid!]

Jerry -

Not sure if I woud advertise that you used the image without permission...

There are two things I would keep in mind. First, study light a bit more. The warm lighting from the top would not behave the way you have it working. Secondly, try to emphasize overall mass and shape for objects.

Both of these will improve if you draw yourself. The more you draw and try to become a better artist the easier it becomes for you to understand what a particular artist you are coloring is trying to do.

Just my thoughts, hope they prove usefulto you.

-c

[Akolyte]

Thanks Liquid!, Sorry about the whole w/out permission thing. It was from www.joemadureira.com so I figured it was safe to color. That's why I put unofficial. Anyways, I just picked up the "Dynamic" book line by Burne Hogarth. His Light and Shade book is in there. Hopefully, my lighting schemes will actually work one day after an in-depth look at this book ;D Right now, I think I just color freely where the colors look good. It doesn't work when the whole composition is finished. I appreciate the help.

[Akolyte]

Does this suck or not? Tell me whats gay about it and what's good, thanks. Be brutal, I'm starting to get serious about this coloring comics thingy...BTW, if you read this Liquid!, I would really appreciate any feedback at all.

[Dan]

man, those are some huge breasts, I think u might wanna tone them down a bit. Bigger doesn't always mean better, especially with her otherwise fairly slender form. Other than that it is awsome.

[Nex]

Dan> Joe Mad!/Pencils

[Akolyte]

Yeah, I WISH I could pencil like that.

[Rattmouth]

Yeah, um Joe! Tone it down a bit!

Just kidding.

Great coloring job, Akolyte. I like the desaturated colors. It really allows me to see how great the line art is in that picture.

No disrespect to Lioquid and the guys there, but one problem I had with that book is that the colors always distracted my view from the drawing. It was a bit too much, for my tastes. But then, in some ways exaggerated colors might be a parallel of exaggerated breasts. So, as usual, my answer just raises more questions.

I like this piece because it reminds me of the way someone like Moebius might have colored this art. I think you should experiment with the light sources a bit. From the looks of the inking on her thigh, there might be two light sources (one above and one below). You could take that information and run with it.

So good work all the way around. Bigger isn't better (and other cliches).

Matt


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: : :will work for money: : :
http://www.rattmouth.com

[jamiem]

Well, I really like the colours you've chosen, very cool ranges.

My only crit would be that your lighting seems slightly flat. Toss in some rim lighting or strengthen the key, but not the fill light. This'll help give it more dimension.

I haven't slept in 36 hours, so if that was a jumbled mess of letters ignore me.

Cheers


------------------
Jamie McCarter
[email protected]
http://jamie.ice.org

[Akolyte]

Thx for the crits so far guys. jamiem, what are rim lighting and key? I'm only 18 and have a limited "art knowledge" of fancy schmancy words for this kinda thing. I take it you mean more reflected light around her perimeter? I do see how flat it is now.

[spooge demon]

Is there any chance that this style could find a home? I could tighten and finish it quite a bit, but before I do I wondered if it is a wasted exercise.

[fazedesign]

Jesus christ spooge, thats awesome. I cant really pick anything wrong with it, excelent style.

[Bilbo]

oh mighty spooge- i usualy try to give constructive crits, but this time i simply have to drool. i am generally a bit tired of the coloring styles used in many comics , but this is so damn refreshing.. i'd love to see a complete comic colored this way.. which brings me to the inevitable question- is it cost effective?

[nori]

PFF CUU HHAA! UF
spooge you're so good with color man. Can you think of any tips or exercising I could do to get better with colors? I mean, I can draw pretty good (I think), but when I try to color my drawings, they turn out like shit in a box. So then whenever I show anyone my work, it's always black and white

Oh yeah, that reminds me. I started my drawing composition class a week ago, and my teacher--Chris Doe--went to Art Center. I asked him if he knew you and he did! heh, he's all "yeahh I remember Craig. He was always wearing headphones doing some really great work. I hear he's wreaking havok in the digital world now, huh?" in his Jeffery Lebowski voice

[Seraphire]

Man, that is awesome.

I love that. The blending of painting style and lineart is something that I'm really interested in. Though I'm not nearly that skilled at it. I would absolutely love to see this persued.

Do you mind if I show this pic or thread around?

Man, that is going onto my desktop.

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The Groove is in the Heart!

Seraphire
Michael Jon Birkhofer
Seraphire's Cafe/Digital Evolution

[Chapel]

spooge: what do you mean by "find a home"? Do you mean could that style find its way into comics as a colorist? Yes and no. I say yes if you were doing everything from pencils to colors or you have an agreement with the other artists and you are a team. I say no, because you add so much to the drawing that your style dominates the pencils and inks which takes away from the team effort. It looks great, but it is more a courtesy thing I guess. There are some books that are organized more like a film production and this would probably fit in to that type. However... coloring at most companies is considered a production process and not a creative process.

Are you thinking of coloring, because you probably make more than 3 colorists combined.

[S4Sb]

muhaaaaahahahaaaaa... I'll never get this far.

Craig, you take me as your apprentice?
Who will reign the land spooge when you retire?

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Formerly known as El Caseron.
And my name is nothing like Sp3zi4liz7 or SuP3r DrAwa *g* ... it has a special meaning ... to me. :)

ICQ:26482363

[Akolyte]

Spooge, I quit.

[Justin Kramer]

spooge -- you should post this in a new thread. Great coloring/painting job -- my jaw dropped when I first saw it. It has the signature spooge lighting, but with Joe's unique style as a base, which is quite different than yours -- it makes for an incredible synergy. I don't know a lot about how the comic book industry works, but I would absolutely love to see this style in a comic, or at least on some covers.

[Flinthawk]

Akolyte, that's funny but I wouldn't quit just yet You've got some good stuff going in your coloring but I think you could've pushed the forms a little more with the lighting, the image is still looking a little flat. Particularly the metal areas could be treated with much more contrast to bring out their surface qualities.

Spooge, you're insane. But I have wondered the same thing...how would a style much like yours be taken by the general comic following populace. I took a shot at coloring some Batman art awhile back as my own little experiment but I found that I was doing the very thing Chapel is warning about...how the colors were overpowering the work of the pencils and inks. I had to lighten up a lot of my coloring in order to keep from drowning out and nearly doing away with a lot of the line work that went into the piece. If I put myself in those other guys' shoes I'd be wondering why I spent so much time busting my ass just to see it get overshadowed later on.

But saying that, I think your coloring just rocks and it's the kind of thing I was aiming for in my own trials (falling way short of course) but the overshadowing thing is just something to keep in mind. Never know though, there could be some rather unselfish people that are only concerned with how much the image looks like in the end, no matter how much their own efforts are overlooked. It's kinda like playing basketball sometimes...sometimes I'll be playing with people that are out there to have fun which usually means they all want to touch the ball, score some points and win the game if at all possible. Then there're times where the people I'm playing with want to win at any cost, even if it means the only time they touched the ball was for a rebound or two because they were too busy setting picks and distracting defenders to let the better scorers make the points. I hope that analogy made any sense

In any case, as long as you've got the time (not that you need much time to do this stuff, heh) I'd be certainly interested in seeing how you'd develop a coloring style. It could be just as simple as finding artwork with simpler pencils/inks that would benefit from a more detailed coloring.

-Flinthawk

[This message has been edited by Flinthawk (edited January 20, 2001).]

[::Dino::]

I just thought I'd chime in and say 'Spooge that absolutely rocks!!! ' How I would love to see your work in a comic book or better yet your own illustrated (hopefully published) medium. Unfortunately, I think your talents would be wasted simply colouring the line work of others when you have proven yourself to be quite the story teller/illustrator in your recent ventures. Bravo on the pic. Your grasp of light and colour never ceases to amaze.

Edit: I forgot to mention I love the adjusted features in the face... The squared of nose and the change in the lips etc.

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-Dino
TMM

[This message has been edited by ::Dino:: (edited January 20, 2001).]

[Liquid!]

Hope this doesn't sound bad, but I'm gonna have to go against the masses on this one.

While I'm usually head over heels for your stuff, I don't think this is one of your better ones. Just IMHO.

I really like the atmospheric push backs of the ink, however there seems to be a lack of focus in terms of color. Her face is very light, yet that fairly harsh lighting doesn't extend beyond. Whereas, the warm lighting from the right truly servers to put attention on her back rather than any other compositional focal area. It just seems that my eye bounces around a bit. I'm not sure if this is making any sense, so I included a quick sketch.



Also I think as far as coloring someone else this really wouldn't fly in my experience. Then again there's always a first for everything. In the same sense though this is not to say you couldn't do a book based upon your usual style. I just don't think you could work over others in this way.
I think you'd have to focus more on doing the stuff you've done in the past, like the illos for Isolde, arthur, etc. Personally, I would love to see a sequential story in that style.

Please don't flame me too hard...

-c

[TheMilkMan]

Chris ...gonna have to disagree with you and give spooge the green light....You love dynamic lighting and color while he uses true worldly colors..your version is the sort of lighting they would use in a disney cartoon to create mood...also you are still stuck in the rut of painting things as though they are lite sphyrically. Now dont get me wrong this is perfect for comic book coloring and you are a visionary in that sense but spooge is a matte painter so his color view on this style of paiting is pretty solid.

Look at how you made the coloring brighter and more dynamic while spooge kept them subtle and organic...your highlights speak for themselves that you love a picture to say ( LOOk at all the colors...aint I beutiful ) and this deffinatly works if that is what you are going for...but is that what spooge was going for???

Personally I love both versions you are both extrodinary with color. Though christian I would have to say that I paint more like you when I am coloring my own pics.

[This message has been edited by TheMilkMan (edited January 20, 2001).]

[Flinthawk]

*puts on goggles, pulls out flamethrower and hits the trigger...shit, outta gas*

Jeez, I've been staring at the two pics for a little while, pondering what's being taught here...I'm beginning to see what Liquid! is talking about though. Spooge's pic is excellent but I do tend to wander a bit. Comparing it to Liquid!'s version I think that it's the brighter lighting on his that keeps me from floating up and away around the pic and keeps me penned in to the area around the face and arm, despite the fact that it's been painted over a tad. I think the brightness of the glow is acting much like a film noir film would use areas of blackness to frame subjects, but instead of black we have something jsut the opposite. I'm wondering what this would look like cleaned up by Liquid! since the quick paint over could detract from what I'm trying to see here.

I think the major difference in the two styles is in their intention. Spooge's lends itself to being a painting that you're meant to study and take a look in every nook and cranny of the piece while Liquid!'s is fairly straightforward and tries to push you into looking at the focal point since in comics this would be a single frame of a story that's going on...you're not meant to ponder on each frame but to move on and continue with the story. I hope I'm thinking about this right, someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert on painting or comics so I'm trying to figure this stuff out on my own here. I think I'm the only professional artist I know that hasn't picked up a paintbrush or been into comics these past ten-fifteen years

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject. They're both great pics in their own respects. But what you're saying, Liquid!, is that from what you know, you'd guess that most people in the comic industry wouldn't be too keen on Spooge's coloring style? Is that because of reasons Chapel has stated? Well ok, back to work, jeez I'm learning a lot from this board but it's keeping me from doing artwork of my own

-Flinthawk


[This message has been edited by Flinthawk (edited January 21, 2001).]

[Liquid!]

Milk - I tweaked the colors to something a bit more saturated, since generally that is my personal perference. Also, don't let my "blooby" rendering detract from the point I'm trying to make. My comments have *nothing* to do with the particular color choices and/or rendering, rather with using value, luminosity, and warmth/cool, to direct the eye. That's all. Spooges' use of more "natural" colors is awesome and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The man has more skill than me - any day.

FLINT - I think you got the point I was trying to make. Personally, I think creating focus in any piece is important, however I don't think its either right or wrong, rather up the individuals preference.


As far as Spooges coloring goes I would have to agree with Chapel. I think that's how things seem to generally go in the field.

That is not to say that there couldn't be exceptions, really is up to the artist, inker, and editor/publisher. However, I think Craig could do a book that is fully illustrated by him. That would be an entirely different story and sort of reminiscent of Bill Sinciewicz [sp??!?].

Just my two cents...

-c

[This message has been edited by Liquid! (edited January 21, 2001).]

[spooge demon]

Hmm. neat thread. This is just the kind of idea that I was hoping to bring out. liquid!, you are definitely a knowledgeable professional, and I had only the briefest idea that I have thought about a bit more since I did this, and also Chapels ideas helped out, too.

I could see a pencil and Inking of this level being destroyed by a paint over like this. That is one main question here- from the simplest of filling in with color to doing my own painted interpretation of the theme is a hundred shades of gray. I could see the penciler and inker saying why should I bother if it is going to be painted over? And I would also say, why would I want to be pinned down when I am going to do my own thing? I could do something like this from a rough storyboard, as Flinthawk suggests. But then it becomes something other than comic coloring.

And if I am working from a sketch that is brief, why not just do my own and have control over that as well? So yes, I guess I am at the same conclusion you came to, do my own thing.

So I guess it is a failed experiment in that sense. When I said it needs finish, I did mean I would develop it similar to what Liquid has done, just more finished. But the work over you did ironically pushed it much further from a coloring job into a new piece of art. This is something I was restraining myself from doing, to work with the ink and drawing as much as I could. I was after the �synergy� that Justin mentioned.

As far as steering the eye around with contrast and focal points, I really don�t know. It�s not something I could ever understand.

I am always interested in new markets and ways of working, and what Bilbo is getting at is I think what I had in mind. The comic industry is always looking for something new that might sell comics, and maybe this is something new? Maybe just a twist on what Sienkiwicz has done a hundred times better.

Milkman, because my treatment of form may be more naturalistic that liquids does not mean that it is better in this instance. The penciler clearly wanted the shapes to flatten out into a 2-d design somewhat. I guess that is the point of this experiment. It works for some, others not.

Nori, I don�t remember a Chris Doe. That�s the problem with going through life with headphones on. The only tip I would have with color is to do many smaller paintings, so you go through the process many times. Study paintings that you like and try to analyze why that color and value is there.

I had one other question, I noticed on Mad�s scan of the pencil that it was done right on the thick opaque board. How do pencilers work generally? Do they do 1 or 2 levels of tissue and then finish it up? How do they get it on that thick board? A lucigraph? I know that animators vary widely in how tight they are; maybe it is the same with pencilers. I find myself more and more drawn to comics, but I have never read them. Kinda backwards.

Seraphire, feel free to do what you like with it. I feel I should finish it, but go ahead, I am on to other things.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment.

[Liquid!]

quote:

---

Originally posted by spooge demon:
I could see a pencil and Inking of this level being destroyed by a paint over like this. That is one main question here- from the simplest of filling in with color to doing my own painted interpretation of the theme is a hundred shades of gray. I could see the penciler and inker saying why should I bother if it is going to be painted over?


This is one of the things I find is quite difficult in what I do. While I think of color as more than just filler material for white areas, and at its best something that works in harmony with the drawn art and completes the picture, I find its difficult to draw those lines sometimes. As of late I've been doing more and more paintovers, which I suppose is a bit more than just coloring art, and the most difficult challenge is to infuse the art with drama/color, yet remains true to the initial artist.

One experiment Joe and I are doing is for an upcoming PSM Cover featuring Final Fantasy X - (yes I got the ref weeks in advance!! ) and I'm super curious to hear what people think of the final product when it comes out.


And I would also say, why would I want to be pinned down when I am going to do my own thing? I could do something like this from a rough storyboard, as Flinthawk suggests. But then it becomes something other than comic coloring.

And if I am working from a sketch that is brief, why not just do my own and have control over that as well? So yes, I guess I am at the same conclusion you came to, do my own thing.


Well, I think for someone of your considerable talent it really just comes down to what you WANT to do. That is to say you could feasibly work with an artist, that truly enjoys your work and would want to collaborate with you, however as you mentioned why wouldn't you just draw it yourself? I think this would be only useful if you're working with an artist with whom you have a great rapport, and you just like working with them. I feel lucky that I work with some individuals that are truly a pleasure to work with and actually get me excited over what I do! Pretty cool thing.


So I guess it is a failed experiment in that sense. When I said it needs finish, I did mean I would develop it similar to what Liquid has done, just more finished. But the work over you did ironically pushed it much further from a coloring job into a new piece of art. This is something I was restraining myself from doing, to work with the ink and drawing as much as I could. I was after the �synergy� that Justin mentioned.


Justin obviously is right. I didn't mean to "overpower" the drawing that much. I was just really being lazy, and just wanted to illustrate teh point I trying to make. I think you could "knock out" some of the linework as you did, however you'd have to be careful when going over important areas. Such as the figure, and expecially the face.


As far as steering the eye around with contrast and focal points, I really don�t know. It�s not something I could ever understand.


Yeah right...


I had one other question, I noticed on Mad�s scan of the pencil that it was done right on the thick opaque board. How do pencilers work generally? Do they do 1 or 2 levels of tissue and then finish it up? How do they get it on that thick board? A lucigraph? I know that animators vary widely in how tight they are; maybe it is the same with pencilers. I find myself more and more drawn to comics, but I have never read them. Kinda backwards.


Craig - comics are drawn on 2ply/3ply 11"X17" Bristol board with Pencil. The pencil "strenght" is personal preference. Some guys use a non-photo blue for layouts, some don't. Then an inker "traces" [insert your Kevin Smith joke here] the pencils using either a windsor 7/hunt 102 crowquill, and most likely custom mixed ink. Most inkers use just about anything to ink with however those two seem to be fairly popular, however most inkers are either Brush OR quill, not both. Then it gets scanned and colored in the computer. Lettering, etc is added and off to the printer it goes.

BTW, you should pick up some comics to get an idea of what's out there. Since you're a big EXCALIBUR/ARTHUR fan I would recommend SoulSaga (plug, plug)...

Hope this helps...

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[This message has been edited by Liquid! (edited January 21, 2001).]

[Flinthawk]

Wow, very informative thread here. Lot's of questions answered that I've been mulling over for the past couple weeks. In your reply to Milkman, Liquid!, was the very point about values, luminosity, etc. that I was noticing so yeah, it seems your message got through

[edit] for the hell of it I slapped the inks and color of that Batman stuff I mentioned earlier to show how I'd lost a lot of the linework when doing my own little experiment...which reminds me, I still have to get back to finishing this page up. Here it is though:



as you can see I went so dark that I couldn't even make out the inks from my colors on Batman on my own monitor. I learned a lot from doing this single page though.

And don't worry spooge, you're not the only person out of the comics loop. As I said, it was only about a year ago that I picked up my first comics...a few issues of Battlechasers and Crimson
[/edit]

-Flinthawk


[This message has been edited by Flinthawk (edited January 21, 2001).]

[Freddio]

The Demon and Liquifer have spoken

[Freddio]

/me Adds this thread to his Sijun Favourites folder.

[Freddio]

The one thing which I dont like about colouring is that you can't say that you created that picture..

you have to point out that you've only coloured it. I dont like having to share the pie with another artist heh.