[Gimbal8]

This is about as finished as I ever get with my artwork. By the time I come back to them the second day I either think they completely suck and don't bother putting any more effort into them or I can't figure out where I was going with it etc.

Do I have commitment issues? Am I the only one who does this? Any suggestions on how to get out of this rutt without setting a fire under my ass that will set off the smoke alarm?

Anyway, I figured I'd post something. Maybe by doing so someone can shame me into finishing something one day.

I'm currently on a Warhammer kick I guess. I have an army of Battle Sisters so...



I tried not to spend all my time on the line drawing in hopes I would make it further in the rendering but that tactic didn't work too well.

I also have a Skaven army and the new army book should come out in March I think. I rarely get to field Vermin Lords but whenever I can...



Edit: oops. Pictures in wrong order cause I'm ever so slightly stupid.

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Gimbal8 ]

[jabber]

thats unfortunate you dont finish these off. honestly, the only thing to do is to keep pushing forward. even if you think its sucking, i would suggest you complete the images. sometimes it takes a few minutes, to a few hours, days months or whatever. its difficult to judge if your improving in your own art work, if your portfolio is compromised only of half finished images.

[iAm-Philter]

damn i like the battle sister if you don't finish it i'm gonna go over to your place and beat you up ya anyway's gw

[Svanur]

Have the same problem here. I begin something and I drift away from it little by little.

What I have found pretty good while practicing my painting skills is that when I think a piece sucks I rest myself from it, I begin a new piece to get a fresh perspective. After awhile I look at the old sketch bin(all those unfinished drawings) and I always see something that I would like to develop a little further, some old piece. Maybe you should try that out.

[Gimbal8]

jabber: Yes, unfortunate indeed. I suspect there is something in my head I have to get over that is stopping me from going further. But trying to figure out what my own brain is up to reminds me of the saying 'the sword that cuts cannot cut itself'. If I can figure out what my hang-up is maybe I can figure out a way around it.

iAm-Philter: Heh, I guess getting my butt kicked in my own house is a form of motivation. If you don't see me get any further with this picture, by all means, come over here and beat the crap outa' me. I'd do it myself but I end up blocking all my own punches.

Svanur: I have tried that actually. But usually when I go back to something I either look at it with disgust and wonder why I still have in on my hard drive or if I do try to continue with it I find I have trouble matching the technique or whatever I was using to work on the drawing. If the line drawing is sound I can go back to it often and try rendering it different ways, but it is in the rendering process that I stall. I usually want to block in the lights and darks of the whole composition first before going into any detail but with these I just tried to get a few parts near completion before moving onto other parts.

There must be a point where, if I get to it, I will not want to stop working on it. Like finally getting over the top of a hill and then the downhill journey from there will be easy.

Maybe when I get home today I'll work on the Battle Sister's neck anatomy issue. I think I made the sword way too long too, even though I like it better that way compositionally. I also need to define the light source better somehow. And the Vermin Lord's mouth is out of perspective with the rest of the head methinks.

Anyway, thanks for the replies.

[jerO]

dude, you're the anti-me.
I'll get 100% of an image to 30% sometimes and move on, where as you'll take 30% of an image and got 100% with it.

really nice finish on areas of the sister and the the horned rat.
really nice stuff.
finish or be /bonked.

[kantide]

I have that exact same problem. I'll go through four or five 1/5 finished pieces a week. It really sucks, I'll work on a piece for a couple of hours, take a lunch break, and either notice how much it stinks or start over from scratch with a new idea that I'd rather do. I'm wrestling with that right now; finish or move on?

[Gimbal8]

jerO: lol Hey, maybe we should combine our efforts one time and see if we can't finish something.

Actually I usually don't go into that much detail on one little section like that. I had to try it this time to see if it would help me get further but I don't think it is working. I really need to go back and block everything in working from large to small.

kantide: Let me know if you ever resolve the issue and how you did it.

I was working on the Battle Sister pic when I decided I'd really like to go with two light sources while I was working on her face.



This of course means I'll be starting over, but I think I need to do that anyway. Something were working well but other things weren't. I really need to figure out how I am to render the black power armor with two light sources. I was having enough trouble with just one.

[Marakaz Buzjuz]

argh you lazy arse! If you dont finish those pics and post em on here... then... Then I'll bestow the curse of the piglets on you.. and trust me, that is one nasty curse..

but seriously, the drawings are real good, and your goin the right way, just do what you did with the rest of the pic, and you'll
have a finished piece of artwork... the kind you can sell to the white dwarf!!

[Satan]

If it's a case of having taken on too much in one piece - you could always try cropping it down to a smaller area - such as the detail pic on the Battle-Sister, and just work up a smaller area to a high finish - once you've a few finished pieces under your belt - it'll be easier for you to get the urge to attempt larger pieces and stick at them long enough to get them done - just an idea, feel free to ignore it

[Gimbal8]

Marakaz Buzjuz : Sounds nasty. I'd much prefer cursed of the horned one. Then I'd be a rat, and rats are far cooler then piglets in my book. Sell to White Dwarf? Heh, I'd just be happy if they even printed something of mine...no charge.

sweetpea: Uh oh...there is a mob of people waiting to beat the tar out of me if I don't start producing some results. Thanks for the compliment by the way.

Satan: Bringing small areas to a high level of finish was pretty much what I was experimenting with. I don't think it is a good idea for a few reasons but I figured I'd try anyway. I actually did something like that a while back and should have learned my lesson then. Blocking in the larger shapes and working down to the details would work best, if only I can get myself to go that far. To show you what I mean, take a look at this experiment I did long ago with the dodge/burn tool and a single skin tone:



I was zoomed in, working on sections. The mouth, the nose, the left eye, the right eye. All were done seperately. Because I wasn't working from the perspective of the entire image as a whole the mouth was never put in the right spot, the nose is pointing out of perspective from her face, each eye is way off and set way too high on the head. Countless other issues are plainly obvious but the lesson for me was that it wasn't practical for me to work in this manner. And now that I've tried doing it again (although I would zoom out often to make sure I wasn't too off on anything) I can still see where I am going to run into trouble working like this.

Your suggestion did give me a good idea though: Tiny finished subjects. That might actually work. Perhaps I am biting off more then my brain can chew at the moment and I need to work myself up to larger scale drawings. I'll just do little detailed rendered drawings of things no bigger then the Vermin Lord's head. I'll have a go at a few when I get back from my weekend birding trip.

Thanks again everyone for the replies.

[Satan]

'Tiny finished subjects' is what i meant by the comment - you'll still be best off working up the composition as a whole, before the detailed rendering.
BTW - is the 'Doom' song in your sig. the one by D.O.A (disco level)?

[sweetpea]

ack! these are (potentially) awesome! if this board hasn't given you enough affirmation that your work rocks to finish these, i dunno what will.

maybe i oughta send guido over to rough you up a little to give you some motivation to finish. *laugh*

[Gimbal8]

The infamous 'Doom' song is from the first episode of a cartoon on Nick called Invader Zim, which btw, rules!

[oKKun]

Gimbal, you're definetly not alone as you can see from this thread. I did the same thing for years and my problem was similar to yours. It seems you fill out details way too early, such as the studs on the shoulder pads on the first picture.

Try drawing a bunch of 1 hour pictures with very rough shading or color. It doesn't matter how good or bad they look. The important thing is that your goal is to finish something, regardless of quality. The tricky part is moving on with the next picture

It's a really good exercise that definetly helped me get started into painting again after a couple of years of not finishing anything.

Good luck

-okkun

[Gimbal8]

Sat down and started working on it again tonight. I have no concept of how much time I'm putting into this but it must be quite a bit. The Gladiator soundtrack sure helped me stay focused though.

Some things I breeze right through and they look good enough to leave alone. Other things give me so much trouble that I end up reworking it 5 times or so. I just block in the basic shapes of a small section (so that I don't get too overwhelmed with what I'm working on) and work in the detail slowly but surely. usually once I'm done with some small section it changes the way something else looks to me and there is this domino effect of tweaking that ensues. Oh well...at least the picture is progressing one way or another.



ugh look at that, why didn't I see that earlier. Nevermind, too tired to continue working on it now. I really ought to use some references. Doing everything by eye is going to kill me.

Other then trying to convince my wife to wear som leather outfits so I can figure out how to render the Battle Sisters outfit better (sounds like a good excuse as any, right? ), does anyone have any tips/pointers on drawing different material folds etc.? And the sword...man alive am I ever going to have a time with that. Maybe I should drop the background in before I deal with that. I'm going to shut up now and get some rest.

PS -Oh yeah, Nick decided to cancel Invader Zim. The FOOOOOOLLLSSS!!!!!!! *sigh*

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Gimbal8 ]

[nova]

It sometimes helps me to write down words or a description or something while I'm still excited about working on a pic. That way, I can come back and read the words and visualize what I was thinking in the first place. Hope I get re-inspired and want to finish it

[Tinusch]

I have the same problem... It's really depressing and frustrating, but I know why it happens, I just can't control it. I detail my pictures too quickly. And then I either become sick of it, or more often the picture just loses any life it may have had. I think that's the key to staying interested. Use a bigger brush and just sketch out your ideas and basic colors to give the picture life. Then gradually begin refining the whole thing. Like what jerO said, I think that's a good approach. Work on the image as a whole, not piece by piece.

[spooge demon]

What Tinusch said! Start from a middle value. Don�t be afraid of your darks- In digital, they can be removed very easily. In traditional media, be afraid, very afraid.

So think in the beginning, with your nice gray BG, is the figure lighter or darker than the BG? Where is the light coming from? Big shapes and big questions.

I had a teacher once say to paint the big silhouettes like the lights have been turned off, or to update the idea, like a 3-d rendering with a fairly high ambient value.

But the main thing is to not be afraid to play in the paint; there is no way to get lost. Oblagon has been doing a lot of work like this lately.

[Gimbal8]

Nova: I understand what you mean. But I haven't used that for artwork before. I used to have the word 'PREPARE' stuck on my fridge. Rather ominous and vague, but it worked for motivation of just about anything.

Tinusch: You're right of course. I've even told other people they should work from large to small, but I can't practice what I preach I fear. I can read and understand what it is I'm supposed to be doing, how I should be seeing and thinking about things. But I think I'm further ahead in what I know then what I can do. I've got to 'play in the paint', as Spooge tells me, for a while until I find my way.

spooge demon: "Don’t be afraid of your darks- In digital, they can be removed very easily. In traditional media, be afraid, very afraid." - And then it hit me: I'm a pencil and paper guy. The kind that loves the little details and very sharp pencil points. I'm trying to paint the way I draw, and that just won't work. Painting takes an opposite approach to the way I draw.

I get what you are saying about the silhouettes. The main shapes I should lay them out like cutouts, or stencils. Decide overall values for them. Maybe use the values to seperate foreground, midground and background. Or for compositional purposes.

What you did is close to what I was thinking about. A war torn battlefield with flames of destruction for backlighting, a tank rumbling in the background with the silhouettes of troops moving up the lines.

I definitely need to start playing in the paint though. It is the only way I'm going to learn.

Thanks again for everyones help. Who knows, I might actually post this one day in the finished gallery.

[Gimbal8]

I got into work this morning and started looking at the thread again and it just seems to me that Craig would kick ass even with just fingerpaints.

Hmm...fingerpaints...now I'm onto something. Do they still make those? I'll just just put my finger next to the nib, use large brushes, and pretend I've got paint on my hands. Weeeeeeee

[Marvel]

Gimbal8, have been watching this trhead closely and must say people have great points here - as what comes to your stuff, seems like you have quite a solid ideas behind the pictures, but a bit like me, don't really now where to go from there. I hope the suggestions put out by everyone helps you in the quest - certainly gave me some pointers, like this one by Graig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by spooge demon:
Don’t be afraid of your darks- In digital, they can be removed very easily. In traditional media, be afraid, very afraid.

---

This must be one of the most valuable single pieces of advice anybody has given out regarding digital art - it's just something you don't come up with when thinking about the stuff - thank you Graig for the tip!

And good luck to you Gimbal8!

[Gimbal8]

oKKun: Sorry I didn't reply to you earlier. Somehow I missed it. My problem isn't limited to going in for the details too early. My lack of painting skill and experience seems to cause me to revert to my drawing habits. I've been working on all kinds of painting excercises lately to help me in that area. Time and practice, time and practice. Eventually I hope to get my painting skills closer to my drawing skills and then maybe I can work on something in a more painterly fashion. At the moment I can't make sense of what I'm looking at when I try to paint. I end up with a senseless mess. There have been times when I started to grasp that ellusive sense of understanding I'm trying so hard to attain. So I know I'm heading down the right track, thanks to everyones guidance and inspiration. Including yours.

Marvel: Yes, the Spooge-meister speaks words of wisdom often. I've learned so much from reading what other artist have to say about things. I often want to compile these jewels of knowledge into a notebook I can read when I'm stuck on something. Kinda like the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, each sentence presents the reader with knowledge to digest. Sometimes you can read the same thing a few times over and each time understand something new. I love that kind of stuff.

After a couple hours of playing in the paint, I decided to work on the pic again in the tedious and misguided way I originally started on it. Made even more mistakes that i'm going to have to correct when I get back to it later but oh well. I knew that sword was going to give me trouble. Now it isn't even angled in her hand they way I intended it and it looks annoying to me. And that glove is really pissing me off too. Welp, lunch is over. Gotta go back to the daily grind and earn my keep. here's my progress so far.

[Gimbal8]

Spent a couple hours trying to paint. I feel like a total idiot for some reason (Other then the fact that I'm an idiot) when I'm trying to paint. It's so embarrassing to look at. I might as well have ingested the paint and shat it upon my monitor.

...can I say shat?

So as usuall I went back to the only thing I know for comfort and reassurance that I'm not a total chode. That being the more pencil like method I've been using. Worked on the gun instead of fixing other pre-existing problems.



I know your probably sick of seeing this thread but it helps me to have a place to post my progression and I don't want to start a different thread all the time for the same thing. Bear with me.

[PixHortHiT]

Hey! its allright to be lazy, me and all my friends are lazy, lazy is good, lazy gives one perspective...

[Novacaptain]

gimbal: i learnt, while reading another post, that guns have a specific side for the brass (where the bullet casings come out). The side is determined by wether the gun is for right-hand or left-hand use. In any case it's always located on the Backhand side (so the empty shells don't hit you in the face).

The gun looks a little too big, as if it were made out-of scale.

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Novacaptain ]

[vurx]

im a total newb to digital painting, but i have a suggestion that works for traditional painting as well as charcoal and pastels...

: dont focus on one area and try to achieve a high degree of realism/precision while ignoring other areas. meaning, work the whole painting, dont focus too much on one area, the bull-headed guy rocks, i would suggest painting him all at once rather than putting all your efforts in finishing a part and moving to another. - it may discourage you to continue if you dont like what you see...

thats just me,

vurx

[Gimbal8]

PixHortHiT: Laziness gives me perspective alright: The perspective of being 27 and not having done anything I'm proud of yet (as far as my art goes that is). I'm done with lazy.

Novacaptain: True about the brass ejection. However I'm not too sure if that is what that is. Most any miniature I have shows it being on that side but any illustration shows the brass ejecting from the backhand side (or at least going in that direction). This is based on a Games Workshop miniature wargame called Warhammer 40k. The guns are usually out of scale (and I should mention I will be making the sword larger since it is way too toothpick-like at the moment). The one she is holding isn't a pistol. The miniature for a Sister Superiorholds a bolter and a power sword and it is what I'm basing this picture on. But now that you mention it, I think I will send an email to Games Workshop and see if they can explain the bolters in a little more detail so I know what I'm drawing. If it turns out that that hole or whatever is for the brass ejection I will certainly switch it. Thanks for pointing it out though because it made me realise that I would like to be technically accurate if nothing else.

vurx: I do understand what you are saying, and I even knew that long before I even started this thread. The problem is that whenever I try to work the picture as a whole I get discouraged because I don't like what I see. For some reason detailing sections at a time keeps me motivated. But even then I usually stop at some point. This is the hangup I'm trying to understand and get over. So far I've been moving along nicely with the Battle Sister pic so I just want to forge ahead and see if I can't at least finish something once in my life, even if it isn't the most ideal method of doing so. When I'm not working on that pic I've been trying to speed paint pictures following everyones suggestions made in this, and other threads. Thanks for mentioning it again though. Eventually something is bound to 'click' and I'll be able to get past this invisable painting hurdle I have in my way.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Gimbal8 ]

[jerO]

Heya. Looking good. I'd actually agree with Vurx on making sure you've got pretty much everything solid before highly rendering stuff... Simply because if you have to make a change, you don't lose tons of work re-rendering stuff.

On the new sister iteration, i want to see her shoulder beneath the plate on her right. nothing major.

[Gimbal8]

Noodled around some on the picture again. Figure length was too long so I shortened the legs and moved them up higher to adjust hip position (that is why you can see the dark overlapping sections there). Just kinda laid out the basic forms except for the other leg. Can't decide exactly where I like the other leg to be positioned just yet. I also added an insignia on the shoulder pad (isn't there a more proper name for that part of the armor?).