[Marvel]

Erm, I just came up with the idea and had to try out quickly how it would/could look. The origin of this image comes from an old Finnish painting where the maiden of Finland protects the book of law (Lex) against the attacking Eagle (Finland vs Russia?).



[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[Basement bound]

I think the sheild should look more like it is protecting rather that off to the side. *Perhaps having her standing, and protecting the law book(being on a pedistol).
*kinda placing all the information on in one image.
*Red eagle for symbolism.
*in your sketch the back light should be softer and not as bright as the original light source.

Just spitting out stuff here.
JA

[Jarno Koole]

Hehe.. a nice one

Her left leg is in unnatural position.
It disturbs the space formed between
the leg and shield and makes the
character look a bit flat.

The illusion of gravity is present
but the sword must have an incredible
amount of mass. I think it should
affect the pose also.

Here�s a quick line drawing:

[Marvel]

Once again, I reworked on the pose (thanks Jarno). This time I was a bit too lazy to redo the lighting as well so you only get the outlines (sans the eagle).



C&C most welcome!

(Edit: man I really should read the stuff through before posting )

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[Basement bound]

the sketch worked out alot of things here is a quick touch up to help with a few things. there are still a few problems but I have to go quickly here.

JA

[Marvel]

Good point about the shield, it did look rather like a pathetic attempt at protecting something - I tweaked the pose a little and think it's already better. And about the law book and the Fin-Rus 'standout', I don't intend to include those in the picture, just stated what the pictures that gave me inspiration for this one had in them (or what the setting was).

Like this:


[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[Marvel]

Ok, now I did a preliminary version of her armor - the colors or shading aren't really final - it's more to show the idea I'm heading towards (have to 'consult' several photos and real life objects to see eg. how exactly curved metal surface handles in semi-dark etc.).



And Basement Bound, good pointers there - the kneepit I noticed myself, but the collar and the hem-line slipped me (the curves on the breasts were just to show, if you will, 'structure' of the armor).

Edit: updated the image again (maiden02d vs 02e vs 02f): made the legs larger and her take on the shield a bit more protective.

Any more ideas / C&C?

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[Ecanem]

Her legs are too small... Especially the right leg - And the pose is a little weak - maybe put her shield higher up like she's defending herself more aggressively.. The whole image is also slightly off balance.. maybe more space behind the woman? - I really like the eagle though!

[Marvel]

Another update. This time 1:1 - the previous picture is half of the original size.



Any pointers on the armor - now it just looks too much like plastic and not like metal (I've stared at reference material but just don't know how to be radical enough with the shading - nor do I have images of plate armor in similar lighting)..?

Update: tested out to make the armor shinier - dunno if I like the end result or not:


[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[SynrrG]

Whoe, very VERY well done so far. Like the details, I love the inclusion of an animal (bird.)

Anything I could of thought of saying has already been said. Cant wait to see it complete!

[Marvel]

Since I seem to be very fond of myself and love monologues , here goes again:


The mouth is a bit odd, the jaw could be smaller and more to the left and the upper lip / lower left cheek could come out a little. Anything else?

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[arkoh]

Right I'll give you this... The eagle looks absolutely awesome! That is in No way your problem with this drawing!!! The armour looks to be coming along great as well!!!

But... hmmm I dont even know if I should say this at an obviously late time in the progress, but... well basement bound noticed it in an earlier comment, but I cant seem to see that you have done enything about it, but the way she's holding that shield as protection is just way off base in my eyes!!! It looks more like she's trying to give the eagle somewhere to land... another thing, that somehow has something to do with this... it just doesn't look like she's protecting herself/fighting off this eagle to me (well maybe she isn't, but then I have misundestood something!). Even the plaine expression on her face seem to say... "ohhh I thought I heard someone knockin on my door?", well you catch my point don't you? Why isn't she looking up at the eagle, sweating, biding her lip, shouting etc.??? It looks to me like you have forgotten about the eagle completely when doing the detailing of the woman and the armour!!

Hope you dont get blown of course by these comments on such a late state in the progress as I mentioned before, but I just felt like I had to tell you this, since I think this drawing has serious potential!!! I am really looking forward to see the final product!!!

[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: arkoh ]

[dogfood]

I hope I'm not offending, but I did a little redraw, (chock full of it's own problems, mind you) to illustrate that there are many different ways to get across the "defending against the onslaught" feel. The arching back, upraised arm, chin tucked in, and I'm sure there are a slew of other ways. I read in an earlier post (I forgot who posted it and I apologize) that you should close your eyes, try to put yourself in the pose you want, then open them and recall the various postitions your body parts are in (that was a bad job of summerizing it).
The rest of it, as has been noted, is top notch, though.

[Marvel]

Excellent pointers people - as I told someone in an email, I have serious trouble producing dynamic poses - everything I do seems to end up very static and forced. I'll really try to get the pose seem more about protecting (rising the shield, bringing it closer to her body) and the expression more about distress, anger, hatered etc.

Thank you for saying the obvious. And it's never too late to point out the obvious to blind people like myself.

I'll most likely update the picture within the next 24 hours - I'll first have to make a birthday pic for a friend who's turning 30.

[Marvel]

Atleast if you ask me, the new pose and expression looks already so much better than the clay-barbie in the previous pic.


Sorry for putting so much stuff into this thread - not everybody has fast connection, so loading this might take a while.

So, any more c&c people? Anything?

[ January 19, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[PixHortHiT]

She�s got a sword for christ sake, its just ONE pissed off eagle, why has�nt she hacked it to pieces yet?

[SWANY]

dont go to overboard with the detail, you'll lose the feel of the pic, her eyes are concentrating on somthing else, i hope it turnes out the way you want, good luck

[SolarC]

Have you tried testing poses with a mannekin?
Then you can concentrate more on the poses than the figures outlook. It makes the process of finding the right pose faster and easier. (Since you need many sketches anyhow.)

It helpes me to think poses more as kinetic forces than exact positions of single parts of the body.

For an example your maidens shield is waiting to get a hit by a great power horizontally from right. So you need to push the figure forward to the direction where the hit will come and also make sure that there is some limb or something on the other side of the figure keeping the figure in balance when the hit comes. So the direction of the hit (the kinetic force) mainly tells the positioning of your figure. This doesn't only mean that you need to lift an arm there and a leg the otherway, but the force gives the direction of the whole figure starting from the torso.

I often draw simple lines or arrows to my sketches to remind me at all time when drawing where are the main kinetic forces of the picture, which are the key to dynamic poses.

I'm not a master of the poses myself yet, but if you want to learn more i can recommend Glenn Vilppus tutorials at www.mag.awn.com and his books.

Hope this is any help.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: SolarC ]

[dogfood]

It appears that your light source is the back of the sheild.
It also seems that the face is merely cylindrical with a face decal stuck on it. If I'm not making sense, let me know.
The above is also a very good point on force balance.

[Marvel]

Ok. Right now I know I should concentrate more on the whole and not the stupid detail - I just do it so that I get stuck on something small that bothers me and try to get it right. Next step is really to try to finalize the pose and lighting for the whole image and only then tweak on the detail (i.e. the exact opposite I've done so far, aka. the correct way ).

Still, here's the latest version in which the head is supposedly (way) better already - tried to get the shape as well as the shading better already.


Btw. Could anyone make an overpaint of a better pose that wouldn't require too much rework?

Edit: now that I look at the pic, the arms seem quite detatched from the body - the right shoulder should be way more up and the left one way closer to the body (as well as slightly up. Other than that, I feel the neck is too much to the left (right in the pic) and the pose still too static - should make her lean more and 'use' the shield more.

DogFood: yup, it looks like the light comes from the shield - I know I did it a bit wrong way when doing the lighting first and getting into the shadows only later - well, I tend to suck on way worse things than that.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[ZippZopp]

i'll give my two cents. i think that her head should be turned facing the eagle and also i think she should be up on her right knee a little higher to give the impression of a strong and sturdy stance, rather than in a crouched position....hope that helps a little

[Tarandon]

I'll tell ya what's wrong with the pose marvel. If I were holding a shield and going to "block" something, my first instinct would to use my legs like a spring. If that makes sense. In your pose her knee is on the ground. If she were blocking the eagle, i think she would initially absorb the impact and then send it back. (Like a spring does!) I hope that makes sense. If they arn't going to absorb with the sheild, then they usually angle their sheild and their body in an aerodynamic way to motion. Think dragon fire, that should work. Your Eagle gives me the sense of hovering. Which is fine and dandy, but in such a case, i think she should be smacking the eagle with her sheild while getting ready to impale it with her sword. The pose has a helpless feel to it. (Maybe cause shes a girl ) j/k. What I'm trying to say is, there is no feeling of movement, or resistance in the sheild. I hope that helps...

[Ecanem]

Hi Marvel.. You asked for an overpaint - this is my suggestion.. (tho I'm no expert)
- maybe it's too cartoony for you?

Hope you can use it

[Marvel]

Thanks again guys - your comments are valuable stuff, even though I kinda tend to loose my head with so many ideas.

Ecanem, your pose is great, even if a bit too heroic, and as you said, cartoony.

I did a new version of the pose and guess will stick to it if you guys think it's good enough.


And it's never too late to change stuff in an image - I do this for fun (not for work) and it's all a learning process anyhow, besides, redoing stuff makes one learn more.

Edit: fixed some oddities

[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Marvel ]

[SolarC]

It's much better. Though i would recommend some curve to torso and girl's hair should be moving the other way if she is moving fast backwards. Head might look also better if it would be turned and not looking straight. It would make more the feel of a collision.

These are only ideas, you have to see for yourself what you will do and what not.

Anyway, nice to see you are progressing with the pic.

P.S Remember that you can try different positions of the body parts in the same sketch, just draw them there and then decide which are the best by hiding some of them with your hand or something.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: SolarC ]

[Jarno Koole]

Wow! Your finn-maiden have gone through
a lot of changes The pose looks
much better now. Few things bother me tho.

As we draw the ground, something pops out...



I don't really know if there's
a foreshortening going on with
her right arm... hmm.. it might
have some errors in it.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: Jarno Koole ]

[Torstein Nordstrand]

Maybe it's time to decide if she was prepared or not. If she saw the attack coming, she would have her swordarm ready, and would lean into the attack instead of leaning back onto the frail arm. She would be putting her shoulder to the shield, keeping her head down, hoping to put the weight of the clash on her full body. If she was out of balance, though, she could be in several positions. Elaborate on the situation and empathize, and we'll get back to the pose...