[Shiro_tengu]

Tiger eaten - I read further into the super cavitating technology. Absolutely fantastic. Future applications of this will be very interesting indeed. Especially if submarines end up using it. I believe that commercial undersea liners would be a great idea and a bit of competition for the airliners! Imagine supercavitation technology used in undersea pleasure craft. It would probably be a lot safer traveling under the surface from one country to another. You dont have the danger of being crushed by monsterous waves as you do on the surface.

Highfive - thanks for your words. I am yet to finish the pic. That took me about three and a half hours so far. But then I felt like moving on for a while. that hunter droid is spooky. Now sharks are no longer the only thing that scare me in the ocean!

Maceface - good to see you again. Thankyou for your words. I am looking forward to seeing what else you draw for this thread (if you plan to). As for the first images on the thread - wait a minute they were my pencil scribbles lol.

I haven't seen anyones ideas for architecture yet. I would love to see thoughts on the buildings and freeways and hospitals etc that exist under that dome. I am thinking that the city will be made up of several domes for safty reasons and within each dome the city will be multi-layered. I have done quite a few scribbles but I haven't taken it any further then that as I am still not happy with my layout ideas. Any help here would be happily accepted.

t4fF - I must play it....I will Play it..(I hope anyway)

Arkoh - I see your point and I love your illustration. I don't think your ideas are useless at all - I think they are great. In fact, in the story the terrorists are trying to force the government to allow people to the surface. There actually are people living on the suface in desert type dwellings. (some of these are the terrorists) They know that the government has banned the city folk from going to the surface and are using scare tactics to force the government to allow it. The surface is no longer completely intolerable (but its still nasty like a fullblown desert times 10)but the government wants to keep the people in the underwater city so as to stay in power. It would be awesome for those top dwellers to live in cave cities. Yours look awesome. Actually - your design would also look awesome as an underwater city utilizing the terain under the sea.

I drew a picture once of an old cathedral in a huge underground cavern with stalag tites and so forth around. It reminds me of that. I should try dig it up. Thanks a lot that pic rocks.

[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Shiro_tengu ]

[arkoh]

yeah I'm sorry!!! I dont think I managed to explain myself properly in my post last night! Too late - too tired you know!

This wasn't thought of as caves above water, but meant as exactly what you mentioned, underwater settlements, utilising caves and huge cracks in the subterrain to seek shelter. I can definately see the point in heading for the bootom of the sea. If not outer space, then it must be the bottom of the sea, if our own world became uninhabitable! But just emagine the kind of technology that would have to be available, if mankind were to build, well first of all a city under water, but second of all a huge glasdome to cover this city... i mean, that would be allmost impossible even above the water, just emagine this situation under water! With caves, it would be possible to create airpockets from where work could progress! Even THAT fact would make this senario more realistic.

Sorry if I didn't manage to make my point clear! Well works calling now... gotta get back to real life architecture... on steady ground you know!

[Highfive]

arkoh, that makes a lot more sense. Cities built into underwater cliff walls would easier to construct and be a whole lot safer against outside attack. At least until the enemy invents drills that can burrow through the rock.

These cities could be inside protected valleys, the only entrances guarded heavily with static defences.

Big thanks for that idea!

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Highfive ]

[SporQ]

i really agree with arkoh. there are a few things i dont like about the glass bubble thing. first is it seems like it would be easy for the terrorists to crack. the second is the problem of air pressure. i mean, just look at bubbles. magnify this pressure by millions of times for a huge glass dome. i think it would need an insane amount of anchoring to keep down. and even with caves, i could see all that air pressure making the caves crack and split off unless they were really deep. but i agree with arkoh the most. if we were to build underwater, i think caves would be the first to be used. maybe after we are down there for a while and space demanded it, then we would go to the bubble, but i think it would have to be an extreme.

[maceface]

what would be even cooler (well i think so) is to have them some how "harvest" or get energy from underground volcanos or something of the like. i mean electricity and water sort of dont mix...just an idea and not a very good one i admit

well anyways this weekend i think ill give the main character another shot. i was in class last night and i was pulling out some wicked ideas

[Zidji]

Here is something that would add to the intense story...

First of all, this is meant for the glass bubble city thingie...

If the whole city is built within a dome filled with air, there has to be some sort of "green houses", artificiall gardens, with trees and vegetation in order to produce more air.
The idea of a multilayered city like the one in "the fifth element" is a more or less a realistic idea. The rich people live high up in the city and the poor people live att the lower levels of the city. There is really no need for the rich people to visit the lower levels of the city, they have all they need where they live.
The whole city has to be divided into different city "blocks" (or different domes) with different air supplies, as a safety measure and... as a way for the rich to stay rich.

The biggest industry there is in a city like this, must be the air industry. The rich people and the goverment control the "green houses", and the other ones has to pay taxes in order to get their daily fresh air.
To ensure that everyone keeps paying their "air taxes" the goverment (all the rich people) flood the lower levels of the city and blaims the terrorists.
The real terrorists aren't really terrorists, they only want to free the people, show them that the air is breathable above water.
But since the goverment blaims the terrorists for the flooding, nobody in the city trusts the terrorists.
If the people in the city knew the surface was liveable they would probably want to live there instead, they would definetly not keep paying the goverment for air. There would simply be no use for the "green houses" and the rich people wouldn't be able to earn more money.

This is why the rich ones and the goverment keep trying to blame the terrorists for every bad thing that happens in the city.
And when the terrorists don't cause trouble, they simply have to do it themself and blaim the "so called" terrorists for it.

It would be very easy to implement a "hero" in this story. At first, a goverment agent, that changes side when realizing that the goverment is the enemy.


I keep saying "the goverment and the rich people", in a city like this the goverment probably consists of rich people. So the goverment and the rich people are the same.

Like the idea?


sorry for the bad english, I hope it all makes sense.


I have repeated a lot of Shiro_tengu's ideas, but the main thing in my version is that the goverment themself cause all the serious damage in the city and blaim the terrorists for it.

/ Zidji

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Zidji ]

[Shiro_tengu]

Ok, wow all these responces.

arkoh - thanks mate. Sorry for misunderstanding you. I think I was tired when I read the thread. I am inclined to agree that the city would utilize as much of the surrounding natural cavities as possible to save on costs as well as serious technological issues. Also I have studied your picture more closely and I love the thing. It absolutely rocks! The layout is really cool.

Also there are many cool benefits to the "cave"concept. I can see cool stuff like phosforous on the walls etc. I think you have a really cool idea.

You got me thinking and I did some research last night into underwater habitats. I am now thinking the dome idea reminds me too much of a 1960's b grade movie. Also, in I want a feeling of claustrophobia and a dome may not cut it.

I never thought the dome would be made up of a singular piece of glass but a structure composed of many parts, one for each separate section of the city. However the "dome theory" I think would work better on Mars then under the sea. I am interested new ideas for the layout. I like yours very much.

I think structures that contain transparent covers will still be required in certain areas such as vegetation and dry farming areas and such. Great stuff arkoh. Are you an Architect? Thats cool.

SporQ - yes like my picture, lol. Yes I am inclined to agree with this cave concept. The Domes would require a structural marvel. Also I think they may appear to pretty for the claustrophic feel I want to develop. Security wize it would be easier to defend caves, as stated earlier by arkoh, as well.

Maceface - What better sorce of heating - steam energy etc. Good one. Its a cool idea. I look forward to those pics!!

Zidji - you hit the nail on the head mate. Thats basically the background to the story in a nutshell except for the government vandalising their own stuff and blaming the terrorists. Thats a great idea. It would really help show how bad the government is!!
thanks.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: Shiro_tengu ]

[Shiro_tengu]

found this gif - thought it was cute

[jcFIG]

worthless_meat_sacks concept is sick. Amazing. I'll shut up now

[arkoh]

Well I just wanted to follow up on my post last night... with a couple of thoughts that has evolved during the day, actually from the sectionsketch I posted before... I thought of these long towers or whatever they were I drew, that actually for some reason seemed to be standing on the bottom of the caves, going trough the cliffs into the water above! I thought of the way these people one day managed to transfer so many people from the face of the earth to the very bottom of the sea to escape the radiation, all it seems in a big hury! Didn't they need some kind of motherships? An "escapepot" as well if you like, if something went wrong and the entire civilization had to abandon the caves in a rush.



It was actually your comment about stalakits that made me think of these huge canisters that were hanging from the roof of the cave, connecting the caves with the water above functioning as living quarters and dockin station for both subcrafts above, and airborn vehicles below. Perhaps as an element of power... ever present objects of the goverments control of the citizens, another way of keeping the people living in fear... water slowly dripping down the metallic hull of these ships reminding them of the water above. A last resort... if the government felt threatend they could pull back, flotting the caves in NO time!! I dont know just thoughts!!



You asked for ideas for the architecture... well there really isn't alot in this sketch about the architecture more about the cityspace itself, but what the heck i had fun!!!!

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: arkoh ]

[maceface]

thats pretty tight arkoh! love the second pic...i want to see more!

[Sukhoi]

Sh*t Arkoh, your sketches remind me of Ridley Scott's!!

Great work guys, great 'debate' also hehe.

Sukhoi

[Shiro_tengu]

arkoh - Man, this is what Im talking about. This is completely awesome. I spent hours last night scribbling pictures of interiors of the city from what you described but I was having a bad drawing day. Those concepts are just what the doctor ordered. They are excellent. I am thinking that this is a winner for the city concept. How absolutely cool. I love your sketches. Great work! My mind is racing now mate! You just keep getting better and better.

[Highfive]

Having the cities below the ground beneath the oceans would definitely make the geo-thermal idea Maceface mentioned earlier more possible. I don't know how they'd prevent the sulfur from intoxicating the entire population in the event of an accident, but it is the closed available source of power.

The idea of motherships ploughing into the sea floor to access hollow caves below sounds easier to achieve that digging out the caves themselves.

[Shiro_tengu]

I am really interested in further looking into the architecture now. Arkohs got such awesome ideas there.

Also if anyone wants a fun task... Lets POST SUBMARINES for a bit. What do you think Subs that belong in this world would be like? Or what about transparent railway tubes running on the ocean floor linking to other cities or to the mines. (there will be mines on and around a super-deep trench. (more on that later)

Here is a quick render of a little basic sub model (couple of cylinders and a sphere lol)just for starters.

I think its way too conventional

but its just to get you in the mood (hopefully)



I am tempted to draw a supercavitating sub of some description one of these days. I also want to get back to determining the look of the main character. But Subs and buildings sound like fun for now

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Shiro_tengu ]

[maceface]

(phew) quick save...shiro i think that sub pic is too conventional...i would imagine that if they can make cyber technology andlive underwater then they can make a sleeker looking sub.....but thats just me...the pic is still cool!

anyways ill try and whip up some more pix here in a bit...unfortunatly my scanner died...(taps playing in the background) sniff sniff

[Shiro_tengu]

Yes yes - hopelessly conventional its just to add a picture to that thread really - get you in the mood. Hopefully make you stay well clear of convention.

I will replace it with something cool soon, perhaps a improved version of my scribble on the first post of this thread. BUT hopefully something heaps cooler!

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Shiro_tengu ]

[Red Leader]

Wow, this thread kicks ass. Awesome concept!

Here are my two cents on your underwater city. I'll keep from adding to the architecture etc. for now, as you've gotten a lot of great posts already for that.

If you want to do this as quasi-plausible Science fiction, here's something you might want to think about.

Diving at depth is all about combating the compression of the gasses in your body due to the colossal pressure of the water around you.
The average depth of the oceans on earth is around 13-14,000 feet. So the mountainous regions of the oceans you want to have some of your story happen in is probably somewhere in this range.

Nitrox (commercial nitrogen/oxygen mix, used by divers to approx.200 ft.), and heliox (helium/oxygen mix used for dives from 200-300 feet) are corrosive poisons and cause serious nerve damage any deeper than prescribed. Also, the pressures exerted by these gasses at a certain depth would be enough to kill anyone due to "nitrogen loading," which is pressurized nitrogen forced into your bloodstream. (This is what's known as the "bends" when you surface too quickly. The expanding nitrogen does the shimmy in your joints and bloodstream) The nitrogen would keep your heroes nice and stoned, too. (Nitrogen narcosis)
If you want your characters to be able to ascend and descend any appreciable ammount, (like the 13,700 extra feet to their city!) you'll need to have them breathe liquid air. You may have seen this used in "The Abyss."
Known as perfluorocarbon (PFC), this is made up of a liquid state flourocarbon like freon being loaded with oxygen.
The big advantage of PFC is that it is uncompressible, allowing much greater depths to be reached. Even ascending 50-100 feet too quickly, say, in 10 minutes, regular air would cripple or kill you. With PFC you could have a great deal more vertical freedom.
PFC would solve your dome city problem too. The whole point of a liquid atmosphere is that it matches the pressures of the water around it, so you could get away with a simple dual "air" lock for entering and exiting, without explosive outgassing.

Of course, if these guys wanted to surface, they'd have a hard time. When switching back to good old surface air,
the residual congestion PFCs cause when drained out of your lungs usually results in death after a few weeks, due to lung fatigue. Also, after living at depth for many years, their body tissues would no longer be able to handle the surface pressure, and would basically fall apart. (Without the equivelent of a pressurized space suit.)

And, as a side note: light falls off completely after a few hundred feet even in crystal clear water. You will probably need special lights for plants if your city is deep.

Just food for thought! I may throw in a bit more later on...

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]

[Shiro_tengu]

Red leader - There will never be enough on architecture!
THAT WAS GREAT INPUT, thanks for that. Its a pleasure to see you on this thread!

The trust you would have to have to take liquid air in would be huge. It basically goes against all your natural reactions. I hadn't thought that the resulting congestion would be fatal. Thats a shame.
I also like that thoughts on skin tissue after prolonged duration under the sea. A lot of food for thought. Man I love this thread. You guys all rock!

[ December 02, 2001: Message edited by: Shiro_tengu ]

[Olsen]

this thread is killer..hopefully by bumping it i'll have time to add some designs

[arkoh]

Thanks for the kind words guys! Go easy on them now! My humble ego can barely take anymore!

Glad to hear you could use the ideas to something Shiro! I've personally been down and out with work this weekend, so no sketches this time, but I have been flying trough this city more than once in my mind! Think I have a couple of ideas more for the citystructure. Just hope to find the time to do some drawing soon!

Man this thread is seriously messing with my brain! I LIKE IT!!!

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: arkoh ]

[12345]

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Lonely ]

[Shiro_tengu]

Whoa - mr lonely - thats one big image!! Nice one!

I had a bit of a play, trying to get my head around a city in the cave senario. I love the idea - I need to go into it further - but heres a conceptual. Couple of flying cars for fun too.



[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Shiro_tengu ]

[arkoh]

Well I was thinkin about the way the citystructure itself had been build, the way it was supported... hmmmm I have absolutely no idea why this the first thing I drew when I found the time, but It might be the logical part of me takin over... but the first and most important thing to figure out, when building on cliffs/rocks, in caves, let that be old empty oil reserves or whatever, would be how the buildingstructure was supported! Doing foundations in these conditions, drilling/digging into the rocks would be out of the question, so I thought of a foundation for the main building structure, being build on top of the rocks, carrying the entire city this way, on individual foundations. I emagined the space down here at the very bottom of the caves to be very claustrophobic, saltwater from the sea above having gathered down here, slowly running by, every now and then being being mixed with the waste from the city creating a wasteland of dirt and trash.



I emagined this foundation to be very solid, in its material and shape, propably plain concrete more oldfashioned, and the city on top of it, to be more high tech and steel like.

I could see this part of the city being inhabited by the very poorest of people. perhaps also being the center for the resistant, too rough/smelly a place for the government to be controlling. Maybe this part of town was only patrolled by robots/mashines.... hang on... too much crap coming out of my mouth now!!!

...

[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: arkoh ]

[Shiro_tengu]

Arkoh - Yes I imagined the lower areas to be damp and scummy and humid and nasty. Perhaps with curfews controlled by police droids. With organised crime devoted to illicitly gaining revenue from the rich.

I think of old decrepit buildings and allies interspersed with massive buttresses of the foundations for the upper levels.

Im not sure if its my computer or what but I am unable to view your image. Can you please check it.

[arkoh]

Now that is weird! I have just tried one of these free online storageplaces, instead of running the images by my own website host filling up this. And seing this page on one of the other computers here at work it works fine, but loading it from my own... then I cant see the image either.

...hmmmmmm No good! I'll have to see what I can do in my lunchbreak... for now, I'll settle for giving you an URL instead... that seems to work anywhere:


http://www25.brinkster.com/arkoh/images/SketchClaustrophobic.jpg

Cut'n'paste you know...

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: arkoh ]

[Shiro_tengu]

Cool thanks arkoh - I can see it!! I love your rendering style.

[SWANY]

I thought it was un underground sci-fi city, looks like Venice.

Good stuff arkoh, You've turned into one of those talented artists who sit on top of this forum without me, i thought we had a deal, or maybee i just took to long

BTW is this thread gonna ever end!


Hope it doesn't

[Shiro_tengu]

Swany - venice is half underwater - so not far to go. Give it time.

As far as the thread is concerned - well Im thinking its only just started. We've only just touched the surface!

Its only three pages! Look at speed painting - its like 8! should be a forum on its own.

[arkoh]

ohhh yeahh... so you noticed the little bridge I trew in there in the back ah? Well I'm glad you did, beacause it gives me an excuse to elaborate on some of the ideas I didn't have time to write down last time...

... i mean if this civilization had to abandon their homes, their countries, the world as they knew it, the trauma of this event would be absolutly mindshattering and utterly incomprehensible if they didn't manage to bring even some of their past with them. Just look at people simply moving from one country to another for some reason whatsoever, even if its just for a short while they would attempt, well at least the majority, would attempt surrounding them with parts of their past. In this situation, I seriously doubt if there would be ships chartered as furniture vans!!! Therfore, i believe that this attempt/human need to stay in touch with their own history and that of their parents and relatives before them, their social heritage, would show in the way they would build buildings/landmarks even if only small ones, that they could relate to.

And then there's another catch to this one, if we should take the plot of this story into consideration. The government controlling the city... well what better way to control people then to take their history away from them... if everything that had to do with the time before the "big escape" was made illegal, that including buildings and other material artifacts! And the revolt being the fact that down here in this wasteland, beyond the reach of the government, old classical buildings or just bridges were being build as symbols of the resistens!...

I dont know... I just like a mixture of super high tech modern stuff and old classical elements... the huge contrast brings out a tension that might add a spice to the story!!!