[Wiked Ewok]

Hey guys, how bout starting a thread on Color Theory. give links and stuff to all the online coloring theory resources you know of. Maybe even books? I for one need to get a good resource book(s) on coloring in general. Thanks for any input

[Ko]

Johan Wolfgang von Goethe was the man:
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0262570211/qid=983951100/sr=1-4/ref=sc_b_4/102-5225952-8209745

Ko

[Wiked Ewok]

shading and tinting colors: http://www.painting.about.com/hobbies/painting/library/weekly/aa112398.htm
main page is here: http://www.painting.about.com/hobbies/painting/cs/colortheory/

other online resources I found: http://www.watercolor-online.com/Articles/Complements/complements.html color complements http://www.painting.about.com/hobbies/painting/library/weekly/aa122198.htm colors and flesh as well

[eric_morrell]

I disagree about the shadows being the opposite of the light source because when you see a blue light you don't see an oranges shadow. I think it all depends on the color of the sky and the material. This is just my opinion I have heard the opposite thing many times. I also think that color theory for art needs to be learned through looking except for the basics. I think I found I completely understood how colors worked when I learned to use curves in photoshop. When you master that curves tool you can fix almost any color problem other than saturation. Its very important to understand that in a picture if you want to change a color it is going to change every color. A great book is Photoshop master class. The pictures the guy does in the book are not the greatest very minamalist with a lot of texture, but the techniques are brilliant.
Eric morrell

[philjaeger]

....warm light tends to cool the shadows. cool light tends to warm the shadows. there are many exceptions to this basic rule... ...(consider reflected light, etc.)

when i was starting to become more aware of the color i was using....around 8 years ago....i tried to copy the color patterns from artists i enjoyed.....michael whelan in particular @ www.glassonion.com

there are tons of fun rules to play with....

1) single source warm light - cool highlight, warmer just outside of the highlight, cools off as we move away from the highlight, warmer just before the point where the primary light ends....and so on..... (these transitions are all VERY subtle)

play with color triads and double compliments (4-way color).

Phil

[Jason Manley]

great topic...Ill throw a few bones...lets see how many we can get out here...

1. light and thus color has three properties..VALUE (light to dark), TEMPERATURE(warm and cool or you could say bluer vs. oranger) and INTENSITY (brighter more saturated to more dull and less saturated)

2 colors have their opposites and colors that are closer to them in the color spectrum...blue is close to green and purple but far from orange...red is close to orange and purple but far from green...yellow is close to ..and far from purple(get my meaning?) these colors that are farthest from each other are called COMPLIMENTARY COLORS

here is an example where color theory comes in to practical use when thinking of SHADOWS and LIGHT.

3. shadows are often the opposite temperature of the light as well as the opposite color. sunsets are a good example...the sunlight is warm and orangish...while the shadows tend to get bluer...the warmer the light...the cooler the shadows. if you are painting or using 3d lights then you simply paint or choose cooler reflective lights and shadow colors than that of the lights if you are using warm lights.

light is also often the opposite color as the shadow as well if you set up a green light then the shadows will look more red etc..by adding a red fill or reflect light.

jason

what else can you all think of???

[Chapel]

eric: Go outside at night and look at your shadow on the sidewalk. It should consist of warm colors.

A neat trick to find the complimentary color is to stare at a bright version of the color then close your eyes. If it was blue you should see orange when you close your eyes.. etc.

Jason pretty much hit on most things. Not sure what else to post, but maybe how to mix colors?

[Wiked Ewok]

That's a good question Chapel, how do you mix colors in a software like Photoshop? Would it have to do with brush options such as overlay? When I lower opacity and paint, it doesn't really blend the colors together.

And yea, I was in the bathroom yesterday with an red heating light illuminating the walls. The shadows were of a greenish/blueish tint. It seems that there always has to be a true balance you look at an image. There was as much red as green. Though is this true for all conditions?

[quaternius]

This is great stuff! I certainly learned the warm/cool conventions - but like others here have said, there's many exceptions. I think it gets down to "observation"... spend time observing before you actually paint - again like others here have said.

PhilJaeger mentioned copying color patterns... that's a great idea. Esp. in Painter it would be possible to scan in some of your favorite artists's work and build color-sets based on their work as a basis for your own.

As far as color-mixing on the computer I tend to use color-sets quite a bit. They're far from perfect, but they can save me time so I use 'em. They can also keep me on track when I need to paint a series using the same palette of colors. Some of you with more Photoshop/Painter experience and far better value-sense than me don't need these of course. But that's possibly one way of doing color "mixing" on the computer.

I've made up a number of color sets which help me. I did one for basic/conventional flesh tones that some of you may have seen already -- here it is again. If it helps anyone, great. I know there's tons of ways to do this and lots of people will disagree, this is just one way.
http://www.geocities.com/cubic44/skin1.html

Q

[Jason Manley]

ok...good...now we are getting somewhere!

I dont ever use the color tools in photoshop to dictate the colors of my painting. It is better to understand your colors from the start.

the rules of color theory can be broken easily for different moods and different effects. None are meant to be "this is the only way it is" if ya know what I mean.

ok...here are some more...lets keep them coming

1 something that helps your colors to glow like light and not just look "whiter" is a thing that I call SAME VALUE COLOR VARIATION. Basically, if the forehead of a character is hit by a yellow light, I will also put subtle pinker yellows, greener yellows, oranger yellows, etc.. in the same area that are exactly the same value as the yellow light. this is something that art history learned from monet and from the other impressionists (except for muddy Manet) Other artists before them used the same idea but the impressionists had more colors and exaggerated it when using this formula.

the same thinking goes for all value patches of color..light or dark. if there is a patch of value and it seems green...then if you really look you will see other subtle differences in that greenish area of color and value. these differences are often in color only and the same in value.

link..
http://www.oir.ucf.edu/wm/paint/auth/monet/parliament/parliament.jpg

take a look...no matter what value you find..you will see subtle color in almost all patches of any given value. if you look at a dark shadow you will see broken pieces of color in it that range in color.

you can exaggerate this as much or as little as you want...just like the impressionists! hehe

the impressionists provide excellent examples of color theory at work. their works are about light and color and thats pretty much it...its not about the subject matter but about the light...beautiful stuff indeed!
http://www.oir.ucf.edu/wm/paint/auth/monet/haystacks/matin.jpg

thats how you get colors to feel like light...even in 3d we use this technique when making texture maps. It is the subtle color variation in the color maps that is present in actual light and on real surfaces that makes computer light sparkle like life.

but this is only a rule and somtimes rules are stretched...pushed...or even broken.

this type of color variation is almost impossible for a regular camera to pick up. that is why photos are poor at helping with color in resource material. but...if ya know all your color theory then you can add color theory to photo color and get your work to the next step.


jason

next up..brightness and opposites for focus...as well as mood color.


what else can you guys think of?

can you find any other artists that use same value color variation?

[KrassOtti]

ok, here's some online stuff about color theory:
www.colorvoodoo.com [this has online pdf books for sale]
www.colormatters.com

dunno if this is the kinda stuff you looking for, but it's still interesting :P

[This message has been edited by KrassOtti (edited March 08, 2001).]

[Jason Manley]

that was well said mr flinthawk

that is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about...the reason it looks brown but is made up of many colors is because same value color variation mixes optically. it is simply called OPTICAL COLOR MIXING

Seurat(french 19th century impressionist) used his little dot painting to achieve the same thing...take a look

link...
http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/seurat/p-seurat1.htm
http://www.oir.ucf.edu/wm/paint/auth/seurat/fort-samson.jpg
http://www.oir.ucf.edu/wm/paint/auth/seurat/lighthouse-honfleur.jpg
http://www.oir.ucf.edu/wm/paint/auth/seurat/gray-weather/gray-weather.jpg


it doesnt have to be done with just dots though...the color variation can happen on the strokes of color as well.

take a look at all the subtle colors in each area of value
http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/b/Bouguereau_William/large/Petite_bergere.jpg


what else????

[Jason Manley]

Eric...

if you have a blue light you won't see an orange shadow like the fruit orange...but you will see that the shadow color is warmer...more orange than the light. It is very subtle....but also if your light is neutral in temperature you will get a neutral(neither warm or cool) shadow...its all RELATIVE.

this is a theory that is taken from life and can be pushed around as you the artist see fit. its only a theory..not a hard and fast rule. you can find exceptions as well.

If you still disagree...take a painting class where you spend hours painting still life and landscape and figure realistically. I had 6 years (22 semesters) total of painting and drawing from life...I didnt see it at first either...but if you relax...look...observe...and see...than you will find the things that I am talking about.

also look at art history...its there too.

jason

[Flinthawk]

I think what you're talking about, Jason, is something I kinda figured out when I first started doing graphics for games back in school. I didn't even have much experience in Photoshop and I was trying to create some basic grass, dirt and rock tiles to start our programmers off.

Problem was my stuff was looking very flat and not very real...very console-ish, saturated, not what we were going for. I decided to study the graphics from other games to see how they came up with great grass tiles, dirt tiles, rock tiles, etc. (this was a 2D game, btw). So, one of the best looking games at the time that was a lot like the game we were doing was Baulder's Gate so I started playing and taking screenshots. I brought them into PS and started zooming in and using the eyedropper tool to see what colors were there. What did I find? Well, I found that the grassy areas were made of many more variations of greens and tans than I could tell from looking unzoomed...I found that rocks weren't just shades of gray but rather desaturated blues, tans, browns, reds, greens, etc...all in all I found that for any area that I thought would just be made of a few different values of a single color I'd zoom in and find a rainbow of colors that made up a single patch.

I applied this to my tiles and what a difference they made. Rocks looked so much more real, grass looked great and everything looked so much richer than before. I also did this on photos and studied the value/saturation changes on objects as they fade into the distance among other observations...something I was forced to do before taking my first art classes a few months after finishing that project. There's still a lot more I need to learn about color so hopefully Jason among others will flood this thread with useful knowledge.

-Flinthawk

[Painted Melody]

Excellent reading, thanks for the feedback all!

Jason, thank you for the great same value color variation tip -- God, that makes so much sense. --

On terms with luminosity, does anyone know how to avoid mud and make paintings richer? In traditional painting I always use dark blues to represent darks, but in Photoshop all I get is grey or this disgusting blob...

Apologize in advanced if this is such a silly question.....

~PM


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D u s t T r a c k s



[This message has been edited by Painted Melody (edited March 09, 2001).]

[kerosene]

http://www.projectkerosene.com/temp/colorinfo.html
http://www.projectkerosene.com/temp/colorinfo.html

I think I am bit late but I made some basic stuff for you eyes to see. Explains the shadow hue with example.


heikki anttila



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heikki anttila
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http://www.projectkerosene.com

[Collosimo]

The example of "Bathing at Asnieres" is an excellent one.

I would like to highlight a particular effect that is interesting. Optical Mixing, is used extensively in this painting by Seurat. As has been said already Optical mixing is what the viewers eyes percieve, of what in fact is a set of tiny dots or strokes of differing colours when viewed close up. Like a TV or computer monitor does for example. However there are further complications within this because a monitor is projected light and colour (additive), and that is different to a physical 'paint'. One of the techniques that Seurat used to create the appearance of water and ripples and bouncing highlights/reflected light is the thing that most interests me. He painted tiny strokes of alternating Blues and Oranges. Now you might think of that as hue contrast. The interesting thing about it is that with optical mixing the viewers eye tends to see the water actually moving or shiny and wet! the contrast of hues makes the eye flit between blue and orange, this then appears to be shining! The irritation that the eye has to work with creates this effect. This could be partly due to the fact that orange is warm and jumps out of the canvas, and blue is cool and recedes to the background.

Interesting? hope you understood that.

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/COLLOSIMO

[Pigeon]

Color is hard, especially for folks like us who can end up using several color schemes:

CMYK, RGB, RYB (paint)

Most people I know grew up with the basic old color wheel of RYB, and so our whole color perception and use is based on that. Computer programs skew this a little.

And good book about mixing colors with paint, and understanding some physics behind color is
"Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green"
by Michael Wilcox

It'll tell you how to get the color you want, but won't tell you what color you should want in the first place

[Jason Manley]

The solution to MUD....


the solution to mud is simple. if the value is correct and your color choice is correct then it is one of two things that is making it muddy. Try using the same color..the same value..just the opposite temperature. if you put a cool blue in the shadow and it looks like mud then put a greener and thus WARMER blue in its place...keep it exactly the same value.

If your VALUE is right and your color is right then it is often just the wrong TEMPERATURE.

since your value and color are right...the only other properties of color that there are possibly wrong are TEMPERATURE or INTENSITY. try bumping up the chroma as well...increase the saturation and or INTENSITY of the given color and or the given stroke and see if that helps your shadows to glow with life.

Shadows will have COLOR VARIATION as well.

Sometimes a piece of color next to the muddy color will make the mud look like a different color...all color is relative.

if you put a piece of mud in there and it looks grey...add a bit of orange to the mud and make a oranger mud and place that next to the bluer mud...the result will be that your mud will look like color....the same thing that was spoken of earlier in regards to the placing of same value compliments to make light and or surfaces shimmer.

Any given shape of value will have bluer parts...redder parts...greener parts etc...I try to put at least three colors in any given area of value to help the patch of color sparkle.

great responses everyone...the comments about the shimmer you get when you place same value compliments next to each other is similar to color variation and its ability to make things glow like light. great addition to the above statements...nice.


Jason

[Jason Manley]

what are some ways that color can suggest mood?

[Painted Melody]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Manley:
what are some ways that color can suggest mood?

---

I didn't write this, but thought it might add to the discussion:

WHAT DO COLORS STAND FOR?

Most colors have several meanings, but they are closely connected with each other. Here are a few examples:

* Blue stands for sky, heaven, and water.

* Green may also be water, but it generally means hope, the color of spring, the renewal of life, feed for animals, and thus, food for humans. Green also means poison, because arsenic, known in most ancient times, is green, and so are many poisonous sulphates. In more recent times, many poisons were manufactured in green powder form, in order to differentiate them from flour or sugar. Green also symbolizes jealousy, and fear, both of them deadly poisonous emotions.

* Red is the color of blood; hence, it represents courage, sacrifice.

* Black is death, the underworld, mourning, desolation.

* White is purity, chastity, but it's the color of mourning in the Far East. Isn't white as pure, or as empty as black? It's also the color of surrender, because a piece of white on a pole could be seen from a great distance, and could not be mistaken for any kind of flag. White means cowardice, too, because some people surrender for no other reason than to save themselves.

* Gold or yellow means the sun, sungod, wealth. Yellow, however, also represents envy, treachery, cowardice. A yellow flag on a ship signifies contagious disease. In the Western world, yellow is the symbol of a certain type of sensation seeking, destructive journalism, because the most vicious kind of news was printed on colored (yellow) paper to incite the curiosity of the public.

* Purple is emblematic of rank and authority. It's derived from the ancient, expensive dye prepared from the purple fish (purpura in Latin, porphyra in Greek). Purple robes were worn by Roman emperors and, later, by high ranking prelates of the Christian church.

* Scarlet, a yellow-red hue of very high saturation, is also a sign of dignity and high rank. Originally, it was a kind of Persian broadcloth, used for tents and flags. The textile was often dyed this particular red and, eventually, the name of the cloth became synonymous with the color. Scarlet, however, is also applied in an opprobrious manner, to women of ill repute. This association is due to Revelations XVII, 1 - 6. Blue, scarlet, purple, and gold are the colors of the priests' garments, as listed in Exodus.

* Gray means colorless, figuratively as well as literally.


For a very nice color lesson,
http://www.wetcanvas.com/ArtSchool/Color/ColorTheory/index.html

Cheers!

~PM


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D u s t T r a c k s

[Jason Manley]

Thanks for the last post about color symbolism. I am sure there are a thousand ways that color can be symbolic. That was a good intro to the idea.

Im gonna talk about color palette choice for mood.

The easiest way to learn about color palette choices to suggest feeling is to watch film and notice what color scheme is used when you feel a certain way. An example would be "the sixth sense". When I was watching that film I paid close attention to what the artists did to keep me scared out of my wits. The characters would walk through dimly lit rooms...cool blues...grays...bits of orange etc...the kid's clothes were gray and dull blues....same with bruce willis...same with his moms clothes....there was almost no high chroma costumes or lighting...it was often cloudy outside...all these things contribute to the dark..dim...intense...feeling that make us feel the way we do when we watch it. Granted...music and story help a lot too...but color and lighting is just as important.

the same devices used in film to suggest mood can be used in 2d or 3d work. costume design..lighting design...object symbolism etc...all have to be designed around a particular color palette for mood.

another example is the film "arlington road" with tim robbins and jeff bridges. I watched this film with my rather happy go lucky roomate a couple years ago. the film is almost entirely dominant darks (only a little piece of light here and there...but the movie format is almost entirely in the middle value to dark range) There is a scene about half way through the movie and Im watching...and my roomate says "wow..I really like this scene" I looked at the scene and didnt find it particularily interesting to listen to..nor was it particularily intense in comparison to the rest of the film....what it did have was COLOR...for the first time in the film the scene was dominant light and it was outside with sunny skies (there was a filter used to bump up the chroma I believe).... right at the point where my roomate sees the light and the bright colors she says that.

The scene with the color was used as an opposite accent to contrast the dark and dull scenes earlier and after. It was like a symbol crash in a beautifully dark piece of music. It stuck out in her mind. She didnt know why she liked it ...she just did. I know her well and shes a sunny day girl if ya know what I mean.

over all, the color palette in both films were the same. cool blues, grays, greens...lots of dark...lots of muted colors...with a bright color here and there. Both films have suspense and intensity and fear.

if you want to think of the opposite color mood...think of happy brightly colored things with simple shapes...like Barney, Sesame Street, Mcdonalds Playland etc...

there are many ways to suggest mood...film uses color like a language. we as artists do the same thing...the more we know about this stuff..the more we can deliberately control our work and our moods in the work we create.

shapes also dictate mood...but thats another story all together.

jason

What other examples can you think of?

[Jason Manley]

Now that is what Im talkin about....awesome examples of color use...both symbolic for communication of idea...and symbolic for feeling.

what other examples like this can you all put up??

lets get lots of good examples like this!

jason

[Frost]

This is an excellent thread. Thanks Jason for doing such a good job at explaining these theories.

I haven't read every reply, but I think there's a few words I'd like to add here.

Back up there Flinthawk was saying how color variations can give life and texture, and that is so true. Mixing colors of the same value attracts the eye, the contrast in hue is vibrating and exciting, and is a form of contrast that can be used to bring things forward and get attention. As with everything, you need good calibration and you need to think how to use such methods. At high resolutions, you can mix pure red with pure cyan in a crosshatch pattern and get a mid-tone grey, the same if you had one of blue and yellow or a plain uniform 128,128,128 grey. Very few natural surfaces will be of one single color, while many synthetic things will be (such as plastic). Anyting that grows is a complexe living organism, and its color cannot be well represented in a mere single color.

As for colors conveying mood, well, I strongly beleive in this stuff, but I also beleive that it is something you are brought up with. In China, Red signifies freedom (they once had circulation lights in which the color red meant 'go'), and in Japan purple is closely related to death, instead of the American 'mystical' approach to the color. You just have to know your client's culture a little to get proper emotions across. There's a lot to be learned from cinema... although very clich�, it does the job right. In a movie scene, you only have a few seconds per shot to get the feelings and mood across to the viewer... there's no time for guess work and confusion. These are very good rules.

[u2art]

howdy ya'll great stuff

nice to bounce ideas around...since we are talkin about movies...Joe Versus the Volcano has excellent (and basically blatant) use of color, and alot can be learned from it. It was the only film directed by John Patrick Shanley...who did alot of plays, and so payed close attention to all the details in his only director role. When Joe is in the basement in the beginning, its all sickly greens and yellows, to make you feel like he does...sick and nasty, flickering top lighting also helps the place look eerie. As Joe moves out of his "ordinary world" and starts his journey, things start to brighten to bright reds and greens, etc. helping to show the transition from destitude to happiness. certain scenes are blatant, but I think work very well... such as right before the typhoon...where the scene is basically monochromatic green, to emphasize the eerieness of the situation...the color seemed out of place, and so the situation. As with most art all color is relative...like said above, relative in culture, relative to each other, and relative to the tone already set..if in film.
I'll digress... I believe Rubens painted some figures by first painting in tones of red. he believed that thhis symbolized the blood running through the veins of the subject, and even though most of it was painted over but undoubtedly set a warm undertone, he believes this preliminary step made all the difference in the life of his painting.
In Classic 7 layer oil painting, glazes were effectively used to make a color more intense and seem to have light, thus life. Glazing a color over a lighter color will look much more vibrant and full of life than that exact same color mixed on the palette instead...something you lose in PS, and gain in looking at originals. This technique also made use of desaturated undertones and washes for shadows and midtones, with more warm and opaque paint over top to make the lights look even warmer...like was said, warm light cool shadows...basic
Color is emotion, and so reacting to your emotions and painting and paying attention to how you feel and why will help immensely. Color Theory is a good basis, but never forget feeling.
Every single change in planes on a figure result in a change of value and color... and with sooo many intricately but harmonious curves on a figure, colors should always be shifting, if ever so slightly to form a unified but immensely colorful painting.

I babble, and I am in a hurry, so I'll go now...hope to keep this up rebuttles, discussions, accusations...lets hear it


Art

ps, good shite jason...as usual

[u2art]

OH YEAH!!
dont forget the abstract artists...they basically fully utilized color..period (aside form their messages on art)

Rothko paints dark and rich, and his stuff is depressing, Modrian a very childish primary palette, and the constructivists..very cold methodical and technological.

Art

[quaternius]

Jason... and others, thanks for keeping this interesting thread going.
Don't know if this exactly fits into "mood", but one of the most important and difficult things to master in color, whether it's real paint or digital - is grays and whites. I'm talking about subtle colors in your grays and whites, cools and warms etc. that provide most of the backdrop for the brighter colors we'll often use to help create the focal point or "punch" in a painting. I know this can be almost as difficult for seasoned artists as well as beginners -eg. Don Seegmiller mentioned the difficulty he had in getting color in to the "white" figure in his heaven and hell picture. (Which by the way is an excellent example of symbolic colors and color for mood.)
Too much color everywhere in a picture gets tiring and boring - which is where the application of subtley colored grays (or mid-tones) with a few brighter colors - rather than ALL punchy saturated color - can help successfully create different moods, (as well as better paintings).

Jason, I think I've seen lots of good examples of this from you. For examples of what NOT to do, the first artists that come to mind are Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell - although they're superb draftsmen. Don't flame me, I know there's big Julie and Boris fans out there - but I find most of their work (not all) garrish, overworked, and I can't figure out exactly what "mood" they're trying to create since they tend to use so much saturated color all over the place - just my opinion. [Everybody's got an opinion]

my 2 cents


_______
Q

...oops, I just slammed some art icons, guess it's back to the rock quarry for me...

[Painted Melody]

I keep thinking symbolism instead of mood... so I don't know if this is correct.

In film, Traffic's color scheme was pretty interesting. They shot each location in a different color: every time scenes involved Mexico, the screen's color would be yellowish-orange. For Ohio, this sad, grayed blue, and San Diego --bright, sun filled colors.

Besides having the need to separate all these locations for clarity sake, the color choices were important. Going back to symbolism, yellow-orange can suggest treachery, and at the same time wealth -- as in Mexico, with the smuggling and rich drug lords.

For Ohio's grayish-blue, a very sickly color -- Ohio in the movie would scene several kids getting knocked up on hard-core drugs, like heroine.

San Diego is hot and bright.



TRAFFIC, Mexico vs San Diego



---

Other films.. Saving Private Ryan comes to mind. I believe they deliberately drained the color out of the film to coincide with the lifeless and horrors of war. The result was dreary and monotonous color palette over brutal imagery.

Glad you mentioned The Sixth Sense! To contrast with the subdued color motif, anything ghostly related (or linked to Bruce Willis's character, like a scarf or door knob) would be a striking red.. a very hard contrast. They couldn't possibly use black or it would be lost, and I think Red can suggest vitality.



lets keep the ball rolling

~PM

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D u s t T r a c k s

[edit: added visual aids...these images are linked off of IMDB, hopefully I don't get in trouble for using them in this thread)


[This message has been edited by Painted Melody (edited March 14, 2001).]

[XangadiX]

mentioning the abstract school I have to add Frans Marc of the german expressionistic school (1910). He uses these brilliant colors which actually seem to talk to each other. Here's one of my personal favourites:



"fighting forms"

[Jason Manley]

Wow...great answers and great points too!

this is fun....

what else can you all think of?

what questions do you have?

jason