[Ravaran]

I used Painter Classic for 7 months after I got my Wacom, then I won an art contest thingy and won Painter 6 and Photoshop 6. I plan on purchasing the 7's as soon as I have money.

[ceenda]

Like someone mentioned above, I got Painter 5.5 on the cover of PC Format. I started using Painter for a while and realised that it seriously "kicked ass" (pardon my French).

I rang Corel and asked them whether the version was valid for the upgrade and they said yes, so I bought Painter 6.

A mate of mine says "A software package is worth it when it's paid for itself".

Whilst I'm not sure about the logic behind that, there is something true about it.

And... at the end of the day... if you walk past WALMART and see something you like in the window, you don't just walk in and take it (unless you like in LA, j/k).

[edraket]

Every company I have worked at in the past four years has used illegal copies. Why? because the whole system of one copy per machine is bullshit. Companies have more computers than people. Those will be used as backup machines, for interns, for rendering, testing etc. You want to be able to just sit down with that computer and work with it without transferring your licence and all that stuff. Especially with Max where it is very possible to get to work one day and discover that your files won't open on your machine anymore. Or when things are just so slow that you are working on two different scenes on two different computers at the same time.
Not to mention the licence system that has you re-register your copy every time you fart.
Copies were bought for every employee. They just remained in plastic most of the time. Cracks are just more time efficient

[BooMSticK]

jup, bought my copy of ebay. For a nice price... but not too cheap if you know what i mean...

[root88]

When Fractal Design still existed, Kai used to encourage people to share copies of their software. The thinking behind it was that if you enjoyed the programs at home, you could convince your work to buy them, or fall in love with them so much that you bought them yourself.

[AliasMoze]

I've used cracked software, programs I just play around with. I don't think the manufacturer would mind this kind of use. I mean, if I didn't have the free version, I wouldn't use it at all.

Jen, are you being paid by the software industry? Why the moral lesson? Your calling these people thieves is like my calling you a corporate shill.

There is a brewing legal war over this very subject, and it is not nearly as black-and-white as you allude. Cool?

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: AliasMoze ]

[hans_e]

This board is starting to catch on fire so I'll keep out of the rest of this mud slinging.

[Jin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AliasMoze:
I've used cracked software, programs I just play around with. I don't think the manufacturer would mind this kind of use. I mean, if I didn't have the free version, I wouldn't use it at all.

Jen, are you being paid by the software industry? Why the moral lesson? Your calling these people thieves is like my calling you a corporate shill.

There is a brewing legal war over this very subject, and it is not nearly as black-and-white as you allude. Cool?

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: AliasMoze ]

---

If you're talking to me "Jen", it's Jin as in Jinny. I get called Jenny all the time, though.

No, I'm not paid by anyone. I'm retired, living on Social Security and taking as little out of my IRA as possible.. currently borrowing on the equity in my home.

Why? Because where I come from, taking something that isn't given to you by its owner or is not paid for so you own it yourself, is stealing.

Where I come from, breaking laws doesn't cut it. If you don't like a law, work to change it.

And... it pisses me off that people have so little regard for what others work to produce and need to be paid for that they'll take it just because they can get it.

A lot of us feel like I do, and if we can't pay for something, we don't have it until we can, or until some kind person gives it to us as a gift (a paid for gift).

Why the moral lesson (if it was a lesson)?

Because a lot of people need to think about the world they're creating by taking what isn't theirs and justifying it by whatever means.. if they bother to attempt to justify it at all.

No, I'm not paid by the corporate world. Haven't been for several years now.. since I retired.. and am happy not to be.

(If I were, I'd still feel the same way. My principles go with me.. wherever.)

You asked!

[aronnax]

I guess my main problem with piracy is that it's NO different to theft. It's the use of property which is neither on loan nor bought outright. Regardless of whether it is being used for education purposes.

However, companies kick themselves in the ass by releasing these really, really, really crappy demos and trials. I mean, a package like Premier, say, boasts that it can export to various movie formats. How can you verify this if the demo won't let you save out your work in that format??????

Also, 30 days is NO time at all in which to verify whether a package is useful, let alone work out what it can do.

The way forward is a re-working of the licence scheme. Make all packages instantly accessible and downloadable by registering users for the free use of their packages. However, once you start making money with the package, you should pay a commercial license or, quite rightly, risk prosecution.

Entice the user to your product and charge them when you've earn't their respect by them using your package commercially.

[aronnax]

Oh, I'm "ceenda" btw, people were mistaking me for a girl...

[thinkwink]

Using pirated software or "demos" is not really a different situation as I see it... But, the first time you make a dime off what you've created with that software... if you have not paid for the software, you are a thief!

World class software developers are some of the most creative and interesting people on the planet. You are spitting in their face if you use there work to enhance your life without supporting their work.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: thinkwink ]

[AliasMoze]

Jin, sorry about the misspelling

The analogy between using illegal software and stealing a physical thing is hideously flawed. Using pirated software is not like stealing a car. It's like walking up to a car, making a copy, and using the copy. I know it's ludicrous, but it's a more accurate picture.

If your friend has a gunshot wound, and you speed him/her to the hospital (breaking the speed limite), it's not the same as killing someone with your car. Breaking the law does not automatically mean you've done what the law is meant to prevent.

So if you've made a copy of a copyrighted tape or copied a magazine article or broken the speed limit, then you're as guilty as someone who uses pirated software. Therein, I think, lies the hypocracy. The above activities are, after all, illegal.

But is your sense of morality dictated by the law of the land? Would you, if the situation warranted, break the speed limit? Or, worse, HAVE you already broken the law? Ever? Even once? Then you're a criminal.

I don't believe one should profit from using pirated software. The activity should be and is illegal. However, there's a tradition in intellectual property law called "fair use" that acknowledges the personal use of intellectual property that does no harm to the creator of the work. Fair use also acknowledges that intellectual property is ultimately owned by the common citizens and that the limited rights granted a creator are a grant from the people.

For those who say, "if you don't like the law, change it," I'd say, "I don't, but I can't." It's the unfortunate truth that consumers have no representation in the government when it comes to intellectual property law. It's the reason a corporation can claim ownership for the work of a dead man and five companies can control music as we know it, using the power to price gouge America for hundreds of millions a year.

In other words, such a black-and-white view of copyright law ignores the original intention of the law, which is to serve the people. It's ignorant, elitist, in ways racist, cruel, and -at worst- destructive to freedom as we know it.

I am NOT labelling anyone here, though. In fact, thanks Jin and Ceenda (who I thought was a girl for the longest time) for chiming in with strong voices.

[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: AliasMoze ]

[aronnax]

hehehehe, no girliness here (apart from my girly scream). You disappointed? -

I remember doing IT and Law as a subset of my degree and yep, you were right, software is included along with literature as intellectual property. My analogy was flawed.

I'm gonna go paint now. (LOL, and yes... I have a license...)

[Pat]

AliasMoze, I think your interpretation of the "fair use" clause in the the copyright law is incorrect. Intellectual properties can be privately held and are notultimately owned by the common citizens. "Fair Use" simply stipulates that you may quote from, paraphrase, review or parody if said action does not significantly harm the rights of the original copyright holder. It's a gray area to be sure, but I'm positive the limited rights you attribute to the creator actually belong public. You can view the actual law here.

-Pat

[thinkwink]

AliasMoze wrote:

quote

Quote:

In other words, such a black-and-white view of copyright law ignores the original intention of the law, which is to serve the people.

Could you explain that a bit more... I'm really not sure what that means???

[AliasMoze]

Aronnax, heheh. Yeah, you posted at eatpoo a while back with a photo or something. I was surprised! Well, some people think I'm female too. You know, only in certain bars on Saturday nights but that's another issue

Pat, I don't think I'm misinterpreting. Well, I guess it depends on what lawyer you talk to. But there is an intent -not to mention mountains of arguments- behind the law in the books. Intent is very important, not only in changing the actual law, but also in cases of possible infringment.

Your last sentence seems to agree with what I said, I think

Thinkwink, I mean that copyrights, trademarks, and patents were originally created to promote innovation and creativity, and the laws heavily favored the consumer. Today, many people seem to think that we have copyrights for protection of books, movies, and music. But the protection a copyright offers is secondary.

[Jin]

Hi again,

I'm certainly not as eloquent as some when expressing my thoughts, but
then eloquence doesn't always equal being well informed or accurate, if
it ever does, and certainly doesn't guarantee either good judgement,
logic, or a responsible view of our role in society.

A few things I'd like to say in my own simple way:

Plenty of those who expect, and deserve, to be protected from theft of
their product are not large, or even medium sized, impersonal
corporations. They are also small businesses and many are individuals
trying to put bread on the table and keep a roof over their heads,
literally.

This shouldn't make any difference, because the basic principles of
honesty and responsibility apply in any case, but somehow I have the
strong impression that people who think using pirated software (or
unpaid for other products) doesn't affect real people who eat, breath,
and button their trowsers just the same as we all do.

I have the strong impression that they are numb to the fact that when
they take without paying, they really are taking more than the product
itself. To truncate the chain of events, they are taking the
corporation's, small business', or individual's bill paying money, even
the corporation employees' or the individual's job. What follows we all
know. It can be anything from "oh well" to a serious disaster for the
people involved.. and their families.

Ultimately, though it may take years to see and feel the results
personally, they are taking from themselves as the more businesses lose
revenue, the more they either have to charge more for their products,
stop producing the products, or even go out of business. How can that be
for the common good? How can that be good for the person who said to
himself "I want what I want.. now!" and took it without paying...
illegally?

I suppose, based on some of the rationalizing offered in previous
messages in this thread, "fair use" of intellectual property would also
apply to copying my teaching materials (my product) and using them
without paying for my Painter classes. I suppose the person who did that
could say:

"Well, I'm a poor student, after all. I'm not making money by using an
unpaid for copy Jin's teaching materials that my friend gave me. Anyway,
I fully intend to pay for her classes after I learn all that stuff and
begin making money with it. She is a great teacher, and I think my using
her teaching materials and telling everyone how great they are will end
up bringing her more revenue in the long run. It's actually good for Jin to
have me, and my friends, using unpaid for copies of her teaching materials!
(Besides, I think she charges way too much and sometimes she doesn't
correct her typos!) Bottom line, using copies of Jin's teaching
materials is fair use and how else can a poor student learn anyway?"


My answer to that is that if people were to copy and distribute teaching
materials from my Painter classes, it could very quickly put me in a
position where I couldn't afford the expenses of teaching, let alone
allow me to bring in any "spending money". This is to say nothing of how
bloody discouraging it would be to know "up close and personal" that
there are people who don't give a tinkers dam about hurting another
person.. me!

(I do know that, and it is discouraging! I do know that there are people
who will take whatever they can get their hands on, without a second
thought, benefitting from others' hard work, talent, knowledge, and
perseverence... without paying for it, and without a qualm.)

Let's try getting some values straight. Breaking a speeding law to get
an injured person to the hospital, possibly save their life, can hardly
be compared with using pirated software to play with or to learn from.

One is a matter of life and death, the other is a matter of "I want what
I want... now!"

"Enhancing one's life" is not limited to earning money. Life is enhanced
when we play and learn. If, in addition, that playing and learning moves
us closer to having marketable skills, it has also enhanced our earning
ability and our hopes for an enhanced life style. This all takes place
while that playing and learning is happening, not only when the great
job is snagged and the fat paychecks start rolling in.

From the moment a product is used it can begin to enhance a person's
life. If it is not expected to enhance the person's life, it's doubtful
it would be wanted at all.. or used at all, even if it's "for free"
(obtained illegally).


There's way too much more to be said, but I'm going to get some sleep.

P.S. You guys are all smart, talented, and able to open your eyes and hearts to things beyond your own noses. Try it, if you haven't already. It feels good and the rewards are lasting!

[Light]

I don't post here too often since despite giving plenty of help because I've realized that this is a place of the herd.

But, if you want my view on it then it is simple:

It is illegal to copy protected software.

Companies do need to make money to stay in business.

The ideology that if one doesn't make money then one shouldn't have to pay money (to use software) isn't liked by the software companies because you can expect that at least 1/2 the market (or the entire market in entertainment software) is generated by hobbyist or low income professionals.

The idea that software companies lose huge amounts to piracy is true. But, they definetly do not lose all that is pirated.

The cost of "equipping" a computer with decent software is beyond the budgets of most people. Those who are moral crusaders here should be sure to check to make sure all of your shareware is registered, that all of your demo versions are not past their periods, etc. The fact is that to compute decently and legally is too expensive for most people especially when one factors in the shareware programs.

----

So, basically what do we know?

1. Using software on a Windows destop is far too expensive for most people to do legally especially for "power users".
2. Pirating software is illegal.
3. Companies lose a great deal to software piracy. Yet, the effects of this piracy is hard to put into perspective with the huge growth of the software market and the non symetrical effects of piracy. For example, it is unlikely that a person who pirates a program like Maya would actually buy Maya. Yet such a person might buy a much cheaper 3d program like Hash animation master (if they didn't pirate). This helps to illustrate the "non symetrical" effects of software piracy.
4. Software continues to become more expensive.
5. Moral crusaders should realize the cost of legally equipping a computer full of software could easily run into $30,000-$500,000 dollars which is beyond most people's allowances (of any age).
6. The software industry despite piracy is a multi-billion dollar a year industry.
------

So, basically I paint a picture that makes software piracy somewhat inescapable without conceeding that it is right or wrong -- while admitting that it is illegal.

The only *real* alternative is to use free software and a free software OS like LINUX. Or as much free software as possible and only buy that which is required. Obviously, this creates its own moral problems for if such a free software inaitive is very succesful then it could be many more people out of work then the effects of pirating will ever have.

Anyway, those are my views on the matter and I say this coming from if not the background of a software industry person then at least the plans to work in the field. So, hopefully at least one day I will be dependant on the incomes of software for my livelihood too. Yet, even so it does not change the facts of the matter.

I might add too that most companies do not offer decent technical support even if you buy the software (I guess they rationalize/think that buying the software is paying for work done where tech support is an extra expense). I should also add too that bought software even with manuals (of which are not too useful if manuals are included on disk can contain many more problems then high quality pirated software. For example, I bought Age of Empires 2 legally and everytime I used it I had to put my software disc in the drive which made playing online games difficult as my CD would go to sleep. I found a crack and could play it without the CD. I had no intent to pirate or distribute the software yet the protection hurt me, an honest customer, far more then the pirates. So, I think the idea that bought software has more value isn't always true.

I should add too that if you can't find free software then many times a low cost student version is available. Check your local campus software shop.

I should add one more note too, and that is that if a person works and spends all of their money then BUYING software (as opposed to pirating) it will end up hurting some industry at least in a "potential sense" particulary if that industry is an intellectual property industry (i.e movies, books, or other items not heavily based on raw good value). It seems that to consider this aspect of piracy would be far too involved so I wont.

I thought I'd add this price sheet. I made this up very quickly to demonstrate the cost of software. Prices checked at Amazon, and all prices estimated or rounded.

Basic Introductory Software (All Users)

Windows XP = $179
Norton Anti-Virus = $49.95
Norton Pesonal Firewall = $42.99
Cute FTP = $32.99
Mirc = $20
Win Rar/Zip = $30
MS Office For Students and Teachers = $109.99 (Regular $399)
Toast 5.0 CD Recording Software = $76.99
ACDSEE = $49.95

Basic: $505

Must Have Software for 2d Painters
Painter = $389
PhotoShop = $586.99

Add: $976

Must Have Software for Design Work
FreeHand 10.0: $399.99

Add: $400

Web Design and Development:
Dreamweaver $369.99
Fireworks: $299.99

Add: $670

Must Have Software for 3d Artist
3ds Max 4 = $3,495.00 (or Maya)

Add: $3,495

Must Have Software for Programmers
Microsoft VIsual Studio Pro: $899.99

Add: $900

Games Starter Pack:

5 Games * $50 each = $250

Add: $250

Total All: $7,194

Student Working 20 hours per week * $7/hour = $6,240/YEAR

Total Package at $7,194
30% Of Salary = 199 WEEKS or 3.82 YEARS
2d+3d Art Package at $4,976
30% Of Salary = 138 WEEKS or 2.6 YEARS
-------------

This is a very basic amount of software for each target area and a pretty much "no frills" and "no glut" package. I didn't really care about the actual programs picked so much as having a few programs targeted to represent the major areas of computer usage. Many people may not use both Painter and Photoshop but then again most 3d artist use more then 1 "main" 3d program.

It's interesting to see too that most of the cost to do a certain type of work either it be for hobby or professional are added on cost. For example to do 3d work would require both the basic package, plus the 2d, and the 3d.

I estimated that a reasonable amount of money for a person to spend on software would be 30% of their income after taxes. This means that a student who works 20 hours a week at $7/hour would only have roughly 30 some dollars of disposable income for software.

Yet, even a person who makes $12/hour at 40 hours per week would only have $120 a week for software which amounts to roughly 30 weeks just to purchase 3ds Max. I think 30% of ones income is also a very large percentage of income for only software and games.

It is important to realize too that this is not counting the cost of an art tablet and capable design computer system too which would probably run anywhere from $1,500-$5,000! Obviously, one can build their own and save some money but the basic software would be pretty much requirement of purchase.

Either way that one wants to count it then software is expensive. The only way that most people will be able to manage is to either not use software, spend all of their money on software, or use as much free and student software as possible only buying that which is required.

It's important to realize too just how little software I've listed here compared to what most people use. This doesn't include books or courses either that are very important for learning artist.

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: Light ]

[thinkwink]

AliasMoze wrote:

quote

Quote:

Thinkwink, I mean that copyrights, trademarks, and patents were originally created to promote innovation and creativity, and the laws heavily favored the consumer.

I may not be understanding you exactly, but I think you've got it backwards. Copyrights, trademarks and patents were created to protect the inventor and producer, not the consumer. They were created to encourage innovation by providing a protected revenue stream to those who invented or produced things. Is that what you mean?

[B0b]

Windows XP = $179 That home or proff user? cos unless you really into ur networking or have a Dual CPU u don't need Proff
Norton Anti-Virus = $49.95 you can have your HDD scanned for nothing online
Norton Pesonal Firewall = $42.99 XP comes with a personal firewall
Cute FTP = $32.99 Internet Explorer will do the same job as an FTP app
Mirc = $20 Free Java Applets do the same thing
Win Rar/Zip = $30 WINXP comes with ZIP built-in
MS Office For Students and Teachers = $109.99 (Regular $399) Whats wrong with wordpad?
Toast 5.0 CD Recording Software = $76.99 erm why this app? CD Writers come with the Writing software) so CD Recording Software = FREE
ACDSEE = $49.95 there are other Free Alternatives

Basic: $505 Basic now = price of Win XP

Must Have Software for 2d Painters
Painter = $389
PhotoShop = $586.99
Free Alternatives
Add: $976 Add 0

Must Have Software for Design Work
FreeHand 10.0: $399.99 can pick up earlier versions on the web and then upgrade
another is QuarkXPress $1000
Add: $400 or $1400

Web Design and Development:
Dreamweaver $369.99
Fireworks: $299.99
you could always get the Dreamweaver Suite and save a few $$ because you get fireworks too and so don't need to get Photoshop
Add: $670

Must Have Software for 3d Artist
3ds Max 4 = $3,495.00 (or Maya) or Lightwave or Softimage

Add: $3,495

Must Have Software for Programmers
Microsoft VIsual Studio Pro: $899.99
there are some Free Linux alternatives
Add: $900

Games Starter Pack:

5 Games * $50 each = $250

Add: $250

Total All: $7,194
Total alot less if u think about what ur doing

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: B0b ]

[Svanur]

Originally posted by B0b:
Windows XP = $179 That home or proff user? cos unless you really into ur networking or have a Dual CPU u don't need Proff There is also the question of patch support from microsoft themselves, personally I would rather take the prof veriosn over home like I take 2000 over ME. Although there is a greater reasons why you shouldn't take ME at all.
Norton Anti-Virus = $49.95 you can have your HDD scanned for nothing online Then you must have an internet connection which isn't always available to everyone but you should just go to Frisk Software International and get their DOS version of F-Prot(which was free the last time I checked) I worked for them for 2 years and they have a very good anti-virus program and have been in the business almost as long as Norton.
Norton Pesonal Firewall = $42.99 XP comes with a personal firewall It's crappy and serves very little purpose.
Cute FTP = $32.99 Internet Explorer will do the same job as an FTP app No it won't, in many cases you are unable to log onto a ftp server because you are doing it through internet explorer.
Mirc = $20 Free Java Applets do the same thing and they are really cumbersome and who pays for their mIRC? Last time I checked there were 10 paid users.
Win Rar/Zip = $30 WINXP comes with ZIP built-in not win rar and on many occasions the files come in a .rar format
MS Office For Students and Teachers = $109.99 (Regular $399) Whats wrong with wordpad? It's crappy, but there is no reason MS should only sell the Office pack as whole. They should make Word available as a single. I wouldn't want to pay for powerpoint.
Toast 5.0 CD Recording Software = $76.99 erm why this app? CD Writers come with the Writing software) so CD Recording Software = FREE Not all CD writers + some recording software have idiotic imperatives.
ACDSEE = $49.95 there are other Free Alternatives Windows XP serves as a good image viewer except concerning PSD files.

Basic: $505 Basic now = price of Win XP

Must Have Software for 2d Painters
Painter = $389
PhotoShop = $586.99
Free Alternatives
Add: $976 Add 0 Those alternatives aren't going to get you up to industry standards and searching for how-to's and learning material for that specific software is time-consuming if not a waste of time because there are almost none. Painter Classic is the only free alternative that actually serves as a bouncing pad to the bigger fellows. The others are in part or whole utter crap.

Must Have Software for Design Work
FreeHand 10.0: $399.99 can pick up earlier versions on the web and then upgrade
another is QuarkXPress $1000
Add: $400 or $1400 Dislike all those programs and wouldn't want to work with them in the first place. No comment.

Web Design and Development:
Dreamweaver $369.99
Fireworks: $299.99
you could always get the Dreamweaver Suite and save a few $$ because you get fireworks too and so don't need to get Photoshop I'd rather just have Homesite which costs not as very much.
Add: $670

Must Have Software for 3d Artist
3ds Max 4 = $3,495.00 (or Maya) or Lightwave or Softimage All those 3D packages are too expensive in the first place but current evolution is promising with the personal learning edition(Maya) and the gMAX(I would still want a PLE MAX)

Add: $3,495

Must Have Software for Programmers
Microsoft VIsual Studio Pro: $899.99
there are some Free Linux alternatives Perhaps, as I am not a programmer I couldn't say.
Add: $900

Games Starter Pack:

5 Games * $50 each = $250 ... This starter pack is quite optional and who says you need 5 games to be satisfied I have UT2003 and WC3 and that's enough for me.

Add: $250

Total All: $7,194
Total alot less if u think about what ur doing I would agree it would be less than the stated figure as not many people are trying to be professional in everything.


What most people here forget to take into account is the price that some of those programs are going for outside the US. The US of A might be holier than thou but there are other countries and as Adobe or Amazon.com doesn't want to sell to buyers outside USA unless through other parties, the price can rise to uncomfortable heights. Here in crappy ol'Iceland Photoshop costs around 1.200 dollars(and the average pay for an hour here for kids is around 3-4 dollars). That's double the price you see around in Amazon.com. I hold to the belief that if you are a professional who is getting paid for your work you must have registered equipment. On the other hand we have amateurs who are desperate to get into the business but have no means of doing so but to get Internet Editions of most software. I mean 1.200 dollars is a lot of money when you think about the fact that you must save money for college or university.

The only reason I bought Painter 6(and 2 weeks later they released the seven ) was because my friend was visiting the US and he could get it by customs here(who charge a sales tax/toll of 24.5% of the total price of item and shipping).

On the other hand game should always be paid for as they are entertainment and rarely have any long-term profitable aspects to them.

Personally I think what would be best is for the companies to lower the price of software. I vehemently believe that the cheaper the software is, the more chance someone would pay for it. Just when sofware packages go over the price of one computer it just gets too expensive.

These are at least my opinions whether you like them or not

[ceenda]

XP's personal firewall is DREADFUL. I've even noticed it turns itself off if you upgrade certain settings on your network. Terrible piece of "oh, let's stick something crappy in because we can't be bothered making anything better" technology courtesy of Microsoft.