[Blind Tree Frog]

Cartoons (Looney Toons at least) are 12 frames a second I believe, not 24. Movie is 24, TV is 30 if I recall correctly.

[Sharper-Image]

Maybe they only have 4 fingers so that they can't give people the middle finger! :P

[::nox|silicon::]

***warming up old topic, but I haven't been here in a while ***

actually I would recommend reading Disney's "The Illusion of Life" to everybody, who's interested in the subject of comics and especially to JD.

liv's quote is from this book too and as it states correctly, it was not only a decision about saving vast sums of money (which in turn could then be invested into introducing more characters, working on the story etc.), but also an artistic decision. Disney was one of the first, if not THE first person in Animation History, who relied on his feeling about things very much. He did not care much about the "realistic correctness" of his characters, as long as they _felt_ right. Disney also was the first one to give his characters a life - they did not exist from episode to episode, but seemed to have had a life, completely with growing up etc. etc. etc., which is one of the things that made his cartoons THAT famous.

It's crap, that mickey's fame is based on fat american children, sitting in front of their tv-set and chewing everything that comes out of it. in fact, mickey was even (ab)used to advertise for the us role in WWII - and guess what - EVERYBODY loved him.

In fact, one of the popular definitions of art is the ability, to analyze things, interpret them and reproduce them in own terms.

The Ability to exactly reproduce things is not art, but worksmanship. Else a Photocopying-Machine would be the greatest artist of all times, wouldn't it?

Even the ability to leave things out, but in a way, the viewer is not disturbed by them is - in my eyes - a very serious, well considered and hard to do kind of art and therefore I do not bother about but even respect the missing finger

I personally would not dare to set Anime on the same stage with Disney or even above it - Anime's are great seen from an asian point of view, but outside of asia they are often seen as dull and boring, whereas Mickey Mouse (especially back in the days it was invented) literally stormed the world and branded an all new industry. Even the guys over at Manga read Disney's "The Illusion of Life" for reference and inspiration.

one last point: heck, why do all those anime-characters have NO NOSE? Have you ever seen somebody with a tick in his face instead of a nose? Are Japanese artists too lazy to draw noses, as long as the little girls' panties are visible enough?

[::nox|silicon::]

oh... by the way... JD Leon, as you shake your finger so much on Mickey's anatomical incorrectness and point out so clearly, that Anime-Drawers work so much more realistic...

have you ever seen a girl look like this?



She must be a model for Manga, hu?

[Blind Tree Frog]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ::nox|silicon:::
one last point: heck, why do all those anime-characters have NO NOSE? Have you ever seen somebody with a tick in his face instead of a nose? Are Japanese artists too lazy to draw noses, as long as the little girls' panties are visible enough?

---

I agreed with you until I started hanging out with a chinese friend of mine more and realised that she had no nose. Well she had a nose, but the way it sat on her face, you could leave it out of a cartoon drawing of her and still know exactly who it was.

[sagillid]

Smart ass response: I think they should only draw characters with only one finger. The middle one. What the hell is wrong with you? Captain Planet ROCKS! @nox How did you get a picture of my girlfriend? (Last two comments were jokes.)

Logical response: Cute characters don't have boney human fingers. Try drawing a hand with sausages for fingers and you'll see five is too many.

Hateful response: If you want realism, use a camera. If you want more than what reality can offer, use your imagination.

Why bother with art at all, when the only thing you want to do is conform with reality?

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: sagillid ]

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: sagillid ]

[n8]

hmm..intresting discussion..thing is..mickey has 3 fingers and 1 opposing thumb ..hehehehe...and nox,...i think the pic you were looking for is


[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: n8 ]

[Steelwind]

Well gee, Mickey has only three fingers and a thumb, lousy lazy North American animators. Oh, and when they draw characters with four fingers and a thumb, they screw that up no matter what they do, too.

Yeah, those NA animators are just all lazy, why can't they draw fifteen minutes of holds and five minutes of animation like Japanese series?

The difference is style. Ever seen any Japanese characters with less than the anatomically correct number of digits? I have. Does that mean they were lazy for a series? No, it means that character would work better that way.

The real difference is a cultural one, I think; the Japanese understand animation is an art form, and can appeal to a broad audience. North Americans (or just 'Americans', since that's what I hear when I read Leon's comments) have been told all their lives that 'cartoons are for kids'.

How many people went to first-run screenings of the South Park movie and watched parents bringing in their six-year-olds to see 'the cartoon'. I did. I warned them. They didn't listen; they said "Oh, it's a cartoon, how bad could it be?" There were many walkouts.

Culture and style. Style is dictated by culture. Therefore, your answer is 'culture'.

I await your comments about Americans' lack of culture. Come on, we all know they're coming.

Steelwind

PS: Sorry to dredge up a seemingly-old topic, I just got back from a two month business trip.

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: Steelwind ]

[Raji]

well i hate to bring this topic back up but MAN i can't believe what JD Leon posted! lol.

I prefer American cartoons by far to Anime stuff. I've seen some good Anime movies, but if I had to choose there would be no question about it: Just give me the traditional whacky cartoons. Why?

1) Here's what Anime looks like on paper:

POSE!!!! hold it............. hold it........... little longer....... THERE we reached 7 full seconds of ONE single pose! Boy that was a hard day at work, let's go home.

lol

2) Anime series to me are absolutely _unbearable_! Their stories are like soap operas. I could miss 10 episodes of Dragon Ball Z and STILL know what the heck is going on. If I missed a single second of Daffy Duck, I missed out on a good laugh. This means that American cartoons in my opinion (and I'm thinking of Chuck Jones etc here) is that they cram a lot more stuff in every single episode than most Anime movies or series do. That's a lot harder to do. AND it's a lot harder to keep that kind of pace up.

3) JD Leon, you can't identify with ANYONE in the simpsons??? Jeez do you have a life man? The simpsons are geared towards the average american population. Seeing them point out the ironies in life and other gags are hilarious! Futurama is also great. The style works because it conveys all the emotions it needs to with wonderful efficiency and clarity. Anime only has a few poses that everyone sticks to.

I'm sorry, I really can't agree with those who bash on traditional animation. It's harder work, it requires more ideas (since it's often primarily based on gags rather than stories) and it requires better drawing skills (although that may only be my opinion). The reason I say it requires better drawing skills is because in order to draw characters as cartoons correctly you'll first need to understand proper human anatomy. I've seen Anime wannabees that could draw some great anime stuff but sucked at anything else.

No, American cartoons still rule in my opinion. By far too. I'm not worried about Anime. I just think it's a phase people are going through. lol. Okay maybe not everyone, just most people. Remember, Chuck Jones has captured audiences for decades and will continue to do so. Pokemon will be forgotten when kids grow up.

Raji

[Mr Weasel]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raji:

....
2) Anime series to me are absolutely _unbearable_! Their stories are like soap operas. I could miss 10 episodes of Dragon Ball Z and STILL know what the heck is going on. If I missed a single second of Daffy Duck, I missed out on a good laugh. This means that American cartoons in my opinion (and I'm thinking of Chuck Jones etc here) is that they cram a lot more stuff in every single episode than most Anime movies or series do. That's a lot harder to do. AND it's a lot harder to keep that kind of pace up.
....
Raji[/QB]

---

Um, I think you're not being fair. Comparing Dragonball Z with Daffy Duck is like comparing sh1t with gold :P. DBZ is really not a good example of an anime, therefore it doesn't represent the whole anime genre. Mebbe you should compare it with something better since "you've seen some good Anime movies" ;P

[Impaler]

In reality, most people don't have the dexterity to ever use their ring finger except for balancing a pencil or for the occasional letter "o" on the keyboard. In fact, I'll bet that unless you play a musical instrument you wouldn't even miss your ring finger if it were erased. It's like watching Elimidate. The most useless and boring date gets cut first.

[daeldren]

Wow Im sensing a lot of hostility towards disney here. To be honest Ive never been a big fan of disney either, all that damn singing, but disney doesnt lack in detail at least not in some of their newer cartoons ( which they actually use japanese animators for sometimes) if you take a good hard look at lets say Atlantis, youll see small details such as characters breathing and such, which Ive barely found in most anime. But anyways, disney arent the only people to draw fantastical hands, a lot of simplified comics and such do it as well, personally I hate drawing hands so that could be one reason haha, the Simpson's also did it, I think because more detail is being put on the comedy than the actual art. But anyways I dont know what else to say.

[Raji]

Mr Weasel, you're right, i suppose the comparison was a bit off. I had seen princess Mononoke which was pretty good and another one (I really can't remember the name but it wasn't bad). The thing is that the animation still wasn't as good as even daffy duck, bugs bunny etc. I don't know. I mentionned Dragonball z because JD Leon brought it up as a series that beat the Simpsons... what a load of crap that was.

[armature]

my thoughts?

I think it was that american animators trying to differentiate between reality and fantasy.

The characters have 4 fingers so the people viewing it can take the toons with a grain of salt and say "well it IS a cartoon you know"

just my thoughts on it.. I could be way off.

-Josh

[StewPed]

I watch a lot of cartoons and draw a few myself, and I figure, when it comes to drawing hands, 4 fingers are easier to animate than 5. Animating takes a while and you don't want to have to be anatomically correct, so 4 is the way to go. The only thing I use my pinky for is typing anyway, and not many cartoon chars do that...
-Stew

[Arnukar]

Hey there! I just can't stand aside and see how you guys are just saying all of these things about disney. I think they've done excellent works (Lion King for example, Alladin had some good drawings and Atlantis and some more).

Except that, everything has good and bad sides. Do you know what's the frame rate of a japanimation clip!? about a half FPS. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE manga and will never stop drawing it, but I'm saying everything has another light! Look at disney's soundtracks; these guys even hired Hans Zimmer for a movie!! And not to mention the VERY high frame rate, and the smooth animations. Just think of a combination of all of the above! To me- perfect clip (manga+high FPS value+Hans Zimmer )

[keredleung]

Thx replies.
Sometime i think its a stupid question.
Anyway this topic have 2 pages replies.
i think i got the answer and i know more about Disney and animation.

Thx

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: keredleung ]

[root88]

Trivia: The only character on the Simpsons to appear with 5 fingers is God.

[damppuppy]

Dekard, Can you cite your source for that claim?

[Dekard]

Another trivia topic.

Did you know Disney owns Vivid Video the Adult Entertainment company? Disney does own and produce porn under this company.