[Blind]

Hi... I was wondering if we could get a discussion going about various tricks people use to layout proper perspective when working digitally. In particular, I was just looking at Phil's tutorial pasting the two sets of radii at the vanishing points and then using transform to stretch them. I'm a little confused as to how to stretch them properly. Should I use Shift-Alt to keep the radii proportional and just make sure they go ouside the bounds of the image? It doesn't seem like that's what you're doing, Phil. Or do you just fool with them until it looks right? For someone who's not developed the eye for that yet, are there some tips to follow on how to judge where those VP's should be and how they should be stretched?

Also, I've looked through the rest of the perspective info on Suma's Link Archive... great stuff, but does anyone have any other tricks like Phil's for getting your perspective set up properly? I'm just tryng to get as much fundamental info as I can. It's very interesting to see how differently people approach the same thing.

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Blind ]

[Malachi Maloney]

Yes, great topic Blind.

I have a piece I have to do next month and the background will be a huge city stretching out into the distance. Not only that, but it will be from a semi-aerial view, looking down on the rest of the city from the top of a skyscraper. I need to find out how to properly set up perspective for a whole city of buildings without the help of 3D wire frames, as I have no 3D software at my disposal.

Does anyone have some good suggestions on how I can get the perspective right on numerous objects, on different planes, without the assistance of 3D?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Malachi

[eyewoo]

Blind... yep! Use just the alt key when dragging, not shift-alt... and drag from either of the side anchors, not the corner anchors...

As for setting the VPs... I have no formula for that other than drawing a freehand cube at the perspective I'm looking for and then following the right and left lines out to their respective (and approximate) VPs. That's where I set them.

[Dekard]

Also just for shits and giggles I'm sure you all know the shortcut for straightlines.. when you make a corner on buildings just click once and press shift when clicking on your next corner of your building and voila a perfect straight line for a building.

(unless you like the sketchyness of your lines there)

[Blind]

Malachi: A scene like the one you're going to do is exactly what I'm talking about. A wide expansive view like that with so many primitives absolutely needs correct perspective to work. My main interest (for now) is to work up big wide scenes in 16:9 aspect ratio, so I really need to learn as much as I can about proper perspective.

Eyewoo: I think I was using the corner handles to stretch my radii. Maybe that's what I was doing wrong. Both were set on the horizon line arbitrarily, but when stretched, they didn't seem to line up right. I like the idea of the cube for finding VPs, I'll have to try that. Let me see if I understand this correctly: Basically, two VPs (in 2-point perspective) must be 90 degrees apart from the point of view, right? So, drawing a cube and following the two sides will give you proper placement of VPs so long as the cube is correct, right? And if you need multiple sets of VPs, you just draw another cube with the desired perspective?

Dekard: yeah, the key modifiers in Photoshop are awesome. There's so many tricks hidden in them. I wish you could use shift to get more straight angles like that, instead of just every 45 degrees. Even 22.5 would be nice. Is there a way to control that in PS6?

Man... I love this stuff. I hope this thread doesn't die. I know it's been talked about in here before, but it's one of those topics that it can never hurt to brush up on, and... it's priceless for the serious beginner. So, any more pros out there care to give their opinions? >8)

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Blind ]

[HaRdC0rePixxX]

Blind, about that straight lines thing, i think you misanderstood Deckard. let's sum up :
using the Line tool, the shift keys will actually snap to 45� angles (that's the process you seem to be describing).
But, if you use the Brush Tool, the Shift key will enable you to draw Lines at any angle :
select the brush, on the start of your line, click and release, then press and hold the shift key, move the pointer to the other end of the line, click again. A straight line should have been drawn between the two points.
that's how i build up most of my perspectives when i draw buildings. i just draw a "perspective line" (horizontal) that is the "eye height" with the "Main point of perspective" and the "secondary PoP" (i dont know the correct english terms, sorry)on it.
then i use the brush + shift trick to draw all the guide lines that i need, starting from the Main PoP and creating the lines at the neede locations.

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: HaRdC0rePixxX ]

[iByrn]

That has got to be the most useful thing I've learned about PS so far. I'll remember that one. I was having trouble freehanding the straight lines on my buildings, there are certain angles my hand just doesn't want to draw at.

[Torstein Nordstrand]

If I was to do a complicated aerial shot of a city, I think I would surf the net for some images (or take them myself), and draw guiding lines on a layer above it. If not, how about setting up milk cartons on a table, and take a snapshot of that... These are shortcuts, getting used to creating proper perspective seems to take quite a time...

[Blind]

Hardcore: I agree with iByrn. That has got to be the most useful PS tip I've heard in a long time. Thanks! I've actually done what you're talking about before by accident, but it never dawned on to use it as a straight edge. That's going to be super useful laying out primitives.

[HaRdC0rePixxX]

oh, you should thank Deckard...he brought it up first. i just explained it step by step.

[Blind]

You're right... Thanks Deckard!! >8)

I've always freehanded straight lines, but this trick will be great for laying out guidelines and perspective grids.

[Ian Jones]

I think Merekat, or Jezebel has a tutorial on their website about using Illustrator for perspective drawings. It was a really cool tip, but I have forgotten the link and I'm not sure who wrote it. More likely Merekat I think than Jez.

aha! found it.

merekatcreations

Browse your way to the pot of gold.

[Blind]

Ian: That's an excellent tutorial! I check Merekat's site pretty often, but I missed that one. Very informative. It should be in Suma's Archive, if you ask me. If it's not there, I'm going to add it. Thanks Ian... Thanks Mere!

The tips are starting to flow in. I love it. Anyone else want to contribute?

[Blind]

Does anyone know if there's a reliable way to layout perspective the way Merekat's tutorial shows, except using Photoshop? I don't have Illustrator. I was checking it out today, but it seems to be a lot more than what I would use it for. If I can get the same effect in PS6, maybe I'll skip getting it.

[i_am_me]

eyewoo,
thats facinating,i find it quite hard to do perspective while drawing,but pray tell, how does this transform tool work?
if memory serves me, i used it once to flip a sketch upside down...to do the perspective, is there a certain method?

[eyewoo]

Blind...

Investigate the transform tool... It's better in PS7, because you can see changes in realtime. In PS6 you more-or-less use a hit or miss technique when using it.

Here's a row of arched shapes that are given perspective with two or three transform moves.



Of course the same can be done using line drawings...

[Ian Jones]

There are some issues involved when using transform tools. The perspective may not be correct, certainly the foreshortening is the easiest thing to stuff up when using the transform tool. It is extremely useful however, but you have to know your perspective pretty well to use it effectively. It can be useful if you just want 'quick' perspective that looks 'right'.

[Malachi Maloney]

I already know how to draw a strait line (multiple ways) in PS. I already know how to use the free transform tool to adjust and distort different objects in PS, none of this is news to me.
What I need to know is, if there's any reliable, maybe even time saving, way to draw multiple objects on different planes and have the perspective on all of them match up without the assistance of 3D software.

Torstein Nordstrand~ That's actually good advice, I thought of that option myself. Problem is, the city I have to paint is supposed to be in a medieval type setting, with all types of gothic looking towers and what-not. So an aerial view of a modern city wouldn't be of much help to me on this one. Still, good advice non the less.

Malachi

[Ian Jones]

Blind, you would have a hard time doing it with photoshop. The great thing about illustrator is that the lines are vector(mathematical) and so load faster and are adaptable. If you were to use photoshop and lay out some lines then it would soon prove cumbersome and slow.

A solution may be to import a premade perspective grid. You would draw one on paper or make one using a 3d program and just construct shapes based on it. Not entirely accurate but a good start and accuracy can be sacrificed in many situtations anyway.

Try searching for that one. You may find some downloadable resources.

Hope that helps.

[Ian Jones]

Malachi, you could probably just fake it and draw what looks right, but that would almost be as hard as learning correct persective.

I can't think of any super simple solution. It really depends on the complexity of your city.

[Malachi Maloney]

Thanks Ian.

I'm screwed........

All I see in my future next month is hundreds of hours spent tinkering with the perspective of a city, that will more than likely be wrong in the end.

I even got my hands on a copy of Maya 4 and I was hoping to build a wire-frame of my city in it. Unfortunately, my OS is out of date (WIN 98 second edition) and I need NT4 or higher to run the copy of Maya I have.

This sucks, I may end up turning this commission down if I can't find a way to get this city right. It's just, if I can't find a way to get the city part of the painting done in a reasonable amount of time, I'll be making less money, as I've already quoted the client a price on a piece that I thought would take less time. So, the more time it takes, the less money I'll be making an hour......

This sucks.

~M~

[Markus]

malachi -
Ian mentioned premade grids above --I've got some birdseye view grids I use for this - they're in dxf format, which illustrator or a number of other vector progams can read (besides cad programs). I'd hand 'em out but they're copyrighted grids, which I want to honor, from Chen's book, "Architectural Perspective Grids"...a fairly recent book... but would that sort of thing help -- or are they pretty useless for you in dxf format?
Do you have any simple 3D programs you can use to set up your own grids? What about something like these?
http://www.computerarts.co.uk/3d/free/apps.asp

[Ian Jones]

Malachi, I feeel your pain. I am trying to figure out perspective, I know the rules now, but putting them into practice... well thats another thing.

I can make you a quick 3d scene of a city, just a ground plane and a geometric grid of building boxes. It may not be very useful though. If you want one though, just ask.

[Blind]

Ian: Yeah, I don't think I'll bother trying to get it working in PS. The more I think about it, the more I lean toward just getting Illustrator. Grids may be the only thing I'll use it for, but it could be a good learning tool. But in the meantime, I'm just going to stick to pencil & ruler... & my Ernie Watson book! >8)

[Malachi Maloney]

Markus~ Thanks, I'll check those out.

Ian~ I may have to take you up on that dude. I'll see what types of free 3D software I can find first. Maybe I can snatch up something that'll do the job. Thanks again for the assistance.

~M~

[Blind]

Malachi... you may even be able to squeeze by with a demo version of some beefier 3D app, just for your needs, no?

[InitialT]

Mal, both 3D Studio Max and Maya have "learning" editions out. Basically free versions that have been significantly stripped of features.

3D Studio has GMAX, which was made for budding game developers, but can still be used for your purpose.

Maya also has a personal learning edition.

Both of which can be downloaded from their manufacturer's websites.

[zou]

i don't know if you knwo it (scott robertson) has very good tutor
www.drawthrough.com

(he has posted greeaat works here)

[Malachi Maloney]

Thanks for helping guys, I appreciate it.

I think I'll probably just grab one of those trial copies of max to set it up. Hopefully it won't be too much of a hassle.

BTW~ Does anyone know of any good online tutorials for designing buildings and such in max? Also, will I be able to save my work and/or export a flattened image of a wire frame in that trial version of max?

Thanks again for all the assistance folks.

~M~

[Mihkel]

First of all...
Eyewoo, your tutorial is great, simple, but extremely useful. Thanks! But personally I prefer to realize it in some vector program, for example Illustrator, or even Flash. In photoshop or any other raster graphics program the lines get pretty messy when you transform them over and over again. Also it is more simple to manipulate with the lines in vector programs, at least for me...

Malachi Maloney: I had/have a big book for the draughtsman, that had a big chapter about perspective, from the beginning until some pretty extreme stuff. If I remember correct, there were some very useful sketches that may help you. But even if I would find the book, I don't have a scanner...

BTW, great topic! Keep posting these tips...

Mihkel