[Sumaleth]

At least this forum down-time has given us a chance to think about the state of the forum.

Lots of interesting posts above me. I think I'll go through them;


. RULES OF POSTING

We first talked about this about ~2 years ago but it never got done. I think it's something that would help a lot so I'll write something up in the next day or two and present it here for debate.

It'll be brief and to the point.


. A DETAILED FAQ

We did actually used to have a very detailed FAQ, written by one of the members a good couple of years ago, but it's not linked any more. I don't know what happened to it, but it included information on EVERY aspect of digital art.

We certainly could benefit from something like that again.

Rinaldo looks like he's put his hand up to manage this? I'd recommend starting with an "INDEX" of everything that can be included, and perhaps start another thread to handle that project. Once the INDEX looks complete you could go about assigning tasks.

Remember; clear and concise. Don't make it a chore to read.


. BEST THREADS ARCHIVE

This is something I've talked to Dhabih about in recent months and I'll continue to push for it.

This will be a new forum that only Moderators can post to and we'll just post links to "great" threads. In other words, anything with content worth keeping close at hand.

We might also benefit from a FAQ LINK KEEPER - someone who keeps a categorized list of great threads. Hmm, that might almost be better than a new forum.


. NEW FORUM

There are new "Sjiun replacement" forums created almost weekly. But the perceived problems of Sijun are more to do with the posting habits of members than the forum itself. All starting new forums does is dilute the scene, and truth is that Sijun is a really good basis to work from. All it needs is a bit of tweaking which is what this thread is about.

I know the forum software is old, but it's still actually my favorite software just because it's so clean and uncluttered. But I'll bring up the idea of upgrades with Dhabih. Is anyone particularly knowledgable in ALL current forum software? Whats the best at the moment? (and a link to a site using it)

If you expect to be able to start a new forum and have it work just like Sijun did in its "gold" period I think you'll be disappointed. That was something that won't happen again, no matter how much we'd like it.


. ADMIN STUFF

The only thing we're really missing is the ability to recover old accounts. If someone forgets their password we dont have any way to get it back. We really do need that.

Someone said we need to ban people. Banning people is a lot less effective than just deleting posts. People who do stuff worthy of getting banned are the sort of people who would make another account and cause more problems.

But I can delete a post in about 2 seconds. It takes someone a good 20 seconds to make a post. Remember that guy who posted ~350 random posts one day? Based on the time stamps he was doing that over a period of about 4-5 hours and I had them all deleted with about 15 minutes. He posted another 10 after that, and then gave up.

It's much more effective having these people give up than anything else.


. CRITS

The forum actually started out as a place to show your work and talk about digital art -- critiquing was something that developed on it's own. In other words, the right to be critiqued is NOT in the Sijun constitution. So no one posting here should be of the belief that their image SHOULD be commented on or SHOULD be critiqued. Sometimes there's nothing to say.

If you get a comment, great. If you don't, go draw something better.

Having made that clear, critiquing and comments are what a lot of people want these days - just as much as the community and chance to see art. I'll keep that in mind when I write the RULES OF POSTING.


. NEWBIE FORUM

I think this idea has been pretty much KO'd. I won't be considering it again.


. NEWBIE THREADS

This idea seemed to prove popular so I'll consider this in the RULES OF POSTING.


. DELETING POSTS UNDER A CERTAIN QUALITY LEVEL

Personally I think this is a good idea, but can I get a show of hands on this idea?

What most members won't know is that for every [666]Flat thread that stays there are probably 2 or 3 that get deleted. So this sort of adminning has been in place for a while, it's just easier with Flat threads because most of his posts aren't about the art.

But yes, I do like the idea of being a little more vigilant on the quality of posts.


. LIMITATIONS ON WHEN PEOPLE CAN POST

Too much trouble IMO. There's no way the moderators could police it and it complicates things too much. It also turns off those -good- artists who find the forum and want to post something. It's a spontaneous things.

--

That's about it for now. RULES OF POSTING coming...

Row.

[Guy-Incognito]

Can we clarify the meaning of a 'newbie'? Is this someone who is a beginner to art or someone who has just become a member of the forum?

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Guy-Incognito ]

[Sumaleth]

Both. Which version someone is refering to depends on the context of the post.

I usually mean someone who is new to art though. I don't pay much attention to whether someone is a new member or not, it's the content of their posts I'm interested in.

[oDD]

Sumaleth:

about limitations of postin: you don't have to moderate it manualy , i bet good forums got features to do it automatically

about board software: i heard that pearl based boards take up alot of processor resorces. So we are intrested in following 3 boards :
http://www.phpbb.com/ http://www.vbulletin.com/ http://www.yabb.info/

i personally would chose the first one , phpbb 2.0

[mjmcchesney]

Spiraloid has a nice system. Required relevant link in every post (thus you at least have some content within each, not just "wow"). Plus junior members can reply to threads, but not start any new ones until they have posted enough quality replies to get "member" status. That ensures that people are committed to the forum before they begin to spam the entire board with random crap.

I like it. =

[Dr. Bang]

quote:

---

Originally posted by PaK0r:
Dhabih is working pretty hard, i just talked to him today. He's a busy man...

---

So he is busy nonstop 60/60/24/7 for the last couple of months?!! Even my moma don't work that much!

[Awetopsy]

got my vote.

[Tinusch]

I think a quality control rule would be very difficult, as many of the things posted here are right on the line between genuine effort and slop. It's hard to say when someone is or isn't good enough to post, especially when they could easily have plugged hours upon hours into something that ends up looking awful to the rest of the community. I would post some examples of what I mean, but obviously that would hurt a few people... I definitely think this idea would be useful and beneficial, but I'm just curious as to how you would go about making the decision to remove a post.

[Awetopsy]

I was just thinking of something also...

It sure would be nice to have a list of all the forum members, each name linking to their profile. Starting with #1 right to #whateveritisnow. Im sure that list exists now.. for server purposes. that way we could avoid some problems of whois questions popping up (not that thats a huge problem or anything) jsut a thought tho.

[Mag82]

My vote for the new posting rules...

Anyway, I got the feeling something's missing, can't tell what yet though ?!

[Loki]

Pakor - you chill, funny boy - the forum's broken ... tell the man to dedicate a minute to his abandoned baby ...

[Rat]

I, too like the new rules, and Awetopsy's suggestion is good too.

[wigin]

Yeah im up for the new forum rules or new forum... would be nice.

On a side note.. I want to see some of Dhabihs new work lol.. Id like to see how he has grown in the last few years... Havent seen anything new for YEARS now =p.

[Lee Yiankun]

I second that. I want to see Dhabib new works as well.

The new rule is cool with me. Though seems to me that it discourage newbies. But I agree that newbies should study & practice more to be able to benefit the most from a comment. Some of them don't even have a basic grapse of form, makes it very hard to comment works like that. a certain quality level will definately encourage comments.

PS, but commenting isn't easy for people who english isn't good. I myself struggles to get a reply done everytime. so may be this is one of the reasons for fewer comments?

[FireWalker]

Ah, long time old-schooler lurker not-poster-a-lotter but-read-the-forums a bunch member here.

Seems that forums tend to follow the same patterns as human civilization... generally speaking. Things get popular... places get crowded... rules get made... laws get formed... babies start crying... and over in the corner is a three legged dog who hasn't yet been fed today. I've seen the forum go through a lot, like... do remember... that one tiiime... when we invented a word... and it was called Threnodizing? He he. Yeah, that was neat. (That was a Chris Farley Impression)

Um... I think I had a point. Yes, right. Determining what is "good" work is highly subjective. When synj very first started posting here many people thought his stuff was poo (often times literally). He scribbled. People thought he was kinda annoying (sorry buddy) and figured him to be half-assing. That's his style. I just think when you're dealing with something as subjective as art, it is tough to make rules as to what is newby and what is good. All opinion.

I wouldn't mind seeing a 'rules' and 'faq' section though so people just don't come running in flailing about without a clue as to what it means to be a member of such a crowd. Maybe there could be like a user agreement and new members are FORCED BY BRUTE STRENGTH to raise the right hand and take the oath of jun.

I think we should honestly declare ourselves a new country and design a flag. Note to self: when forums back up someone start a sijun flag design thread.

Yeah, good times.

[Lunatique]

Sumaleth- I like the rules. However, I have a couple of concerns:

1)The wording should probably be dumbed down a bit to layman's terms. Many members/future members are: a)very young. b)non-English speaking. Especially the phrase, "do try to be sporting about it." will probably go right over some of the less literate/English proficient member's heads.

2)Sijun's unique inventions like "paintover" should be explained. New members won't know what the heck it is. Also, rules regarding "threnodizing" and "Flat-esque art" should be mentioned. It seems some newbies are so eager to please that they end up a)ripping off art. b)lie about a photo-rape. They should be told the consequences of those actions.

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[Trance-R]

Mmm... I think it's only natural for the changes in the forum with the growing population. The system is more difficult to keep track of and people can not know each other as well because there are just too many people and too many posts to keep up with.

Parn-LOL! I thought "I" am a lurker, but you. Wow... 2 posts since 1999!


Oopsies, didn't realize there are three pages to this. Just read the rules. And I agree with them.

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Trance-R ]

[Sumaleth]

SUBJECTIVITY

Yes, whats "good" is definitely subjective. That's something the moderators will need to discuss, but I expect the height bar will be changing all the time depending on the needs of the forum.

If someone looks to have put a decent amount of effort into a picture (ie. more than a couple of days) then I think it should be allowed regardless of the artistic quality.

TRENDONIZING

Good point about the Threnodizing - I'll add a comment about it to the rules.

PAINT-OVERS (and other terms)

What I'll do to help here is add links from the Rules to the FAQ where more detailed information can be found.

The important thing about the Rules is to imply 'intent and tone' rather than go into everything in too much detail.

--

I've asked Dhabih for shell access to the server so I can start making the changes.

Row.

[ValarianROOT]

The only other problem with the rules I see is: How are you going to make "newbies" read them. Honestly, how many of use read the "End-Users Agreements" that we agree to when installing software?

Now, for a solution... There should be a quiz!!! I have no idea how difficult this would be, but if a "newb" can't correctly answer a series of questions related to the rules they can't post. How's that for a suggestion.

JN

P.S. To be honest this thread scares me a bit. With its Stalinist rhetoric trying to make the forum better with rules only, as opposed to leading by example or even taking time to steer a "newb" in the right direction. If sijun is to dissuade "newbs" from posting maybe along with rules there should be some links to a site like the one Pro has started a thread about.

My 2 cents. Christ I can't believe I stayed up 'till 3 AM to read all this...

[Sumaleth]

That PHPBB2 actually looks pretty inviting; it appears to be free (?) and there's even a convertor for UBB. I wonder what UBB we're using here.

Anyway, here's first-pass go at what I think needs to be in the posting rules. Note that there are two versions; one for starting a new thread and one for replying to existing posts;

SIJUN FORUM RULES OF POSTING (NEW THREADS)
------------------------------------------

Before starting a new thread please read the following rules. Posts that don't follow
these rules will likely be deleted. This is not the rebirth of Hitler, the rules aim
only to correct lingering problems.

1. POST IN THE CORRECT FORUM

DIGITAL ART DISCUSSION
Discussion about art, technique, artists, and basically anything art related.

WORK IN PROGRESS
For feedback and suggestions on early stages of art, or to show off works in progress.

GALLERY/FINISHED WORK
Finished artwork, tutorials and homepage links.

RANDOM MUSINGS
Non-art stuff.

2. POST QUALITY ART

If you're a beginning artist please resist the urge to post until you've reached
a point where you can create art worth sharing. The only feedback anyone can offer
a beginning artist is 'practice, practice, practice', but you should always feel
free to lurk the forums and absorb as much as possible from the art of others.

Moderators will delete posts not up to some sort of standard. Harsh, but necessary.

However, if you're still keen to post there are special 'BEGINNER ART' threads
where anyone is able to post any art they want.

3. USE THE FORUM FEATURES

This includes reading the FAQ if you don't know how to post an image, and using the
post-editing button to make changes rather than posting 20 times just to get it right.

4. DON'T EXPECT CRITIQUES, COMMENTS OR FEEDBACK

Everyone who posts art hopes to get some sort of reaction to their art, but don't expect
it. Sometimes there's just nothing to be said, or no one can put into words what they
think is right/wrong. If you don't get any response, try to work out why and work to
post something better next time.

If you're lucky enough to get comments, don't get upset if they're not as sugar-coated
as you would have liked. And don't get upset if someone does a paint-over - paint-overs
are encouraged here.

--end--


SIJUN FORUM RULES OF POSTING (REPLIES)
--------------------------------------

Before replying to a thread please read the following rules. Posts that don't follow these
rules will likely be deleted. This is not the rebirth of Hitler, the rules aim only to
correct lingering problems.

1. BE THOUGHTFUL OF YOUR FEEDBACK

If you enjoy a piece of art, don't be afraid to say so. Everyone loves comments,
even if they're just a "That's great". However, intelligent critiquing is the
prefered form of feedback.

Everyone loves paint-overs! If you can show easier than explain, go for it.

And if you're posting critiques or suggestions, do try to be sporting about it.

2. POST QUALITY ART

If you're a beginning artist please resist the urge to post until you've reached
a point where you can create art worth sharing. The only feedback anyone can offer
a beginning artist is 'practice, practice, practice', but you should always feel
free to lurk the forums and absorb as much as possible from the art of others.

Moderators will delete posts not up to some sort of standard. Harsh, but necessary.

However, if you're still keen to post there are special 'BEGINNER ART' threads
where anyone is able to post any art they want.

3. USE THE FORUM FEATURES

This includes reading the FAQ if you don't know how to post an image, and using the
post-editing button to make changes rather than posting 20 times just to get it right.

--end--

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Sumaleth ]

[ValarianROOT]

Also, as a side note: Armageddon (commonly known as �Revelations� around my house) or the Rapture of Christian religion has come and gone. Thus, taking the only three true-believers in Christ up to heaven. All known as: �Work in Progress, Gallery/Finished Work, and Random Musings.� We are all doomed and should prepare for an eternity in hell.

JN

[Mindsiphon]

The new forum rules got my vote.
Places like Epilogue will not accept art if it looks like little time or thought was put into it.
I think Sijun should have a quality threshold as well.

[PaK0r]

Dhabih is working pretty hard, i just talked to him today. He's a busy man...

besides, there are other moderators like sumaleth and stuff...so chill evceryone, chill.

[eyewoo]

I like the new rules... get it up and going...

[Reid]

I�m excited and all pumped to critique!
www.phpbb.com is an awesome, powerful board. Easy to install and manage, and very customizable! Gets my vote.

[FSME]

@ValarianROOT: Amen. I like the quiz idea though. Or how about a Jeopardy version?
- Your posts should go there.
- What is the correct forum?
- That is absolutely correct!

[Sumaleth]

Valarian: I dont think a quiz is the answer.

I think everyone here recognizes that having rules on something like "quality" is an uneasy concept, but it's a question of "lesser evils".

Do we let it keep going as it is, with an ever-growing volume of art that only the poster likes, a volume that is causing more and more professional artists to loose interest in the forum -- or do we try to find the least intrusive way to keep the place worth visiting.

We've been doing it the first way for the last 12 months now and the general concensus seems to be that it's now time to try something else.

--

How to get people to read the rules? A flashing/strobing/animated "READ THESE RULES" - or something - above the editing box would probably work a treat.

[crazybread]

Hello ALL. I too am very curious as to whats going to happen to this forum. Not that anyone cares but Craig invited me to this forum so I've been a daily observer for way over a year now. (Not sure why I lacked the courage to post [I'm a humble man]) I'm a professional matte painter and I know that lately this forum has been falling apart (somehow), anyways I love the rules and regulations that Sumaleth proposed,(some other people added valuable things too),,, with all do respect to the NEWBs Lots have been said about how to go about fixing such minor problems like simple perspective and form so Yes links to those would only be apropreate so that somebody new to art could go through it and find a little common sense and hold their same questions. We could have it in the rules that any "stupid question" that is a FAQ would be deleted, bla bla bla.

anyways:
I would love to start to post here and share my views, ideas and perhaps technique that is if this forum was to be saved and Sumaleths rules implied.

[zak]

i vote for a certain time period, for the newbie to "qualify" to start posting in the forum. the idea doesnt seem very intrusive. having to gain member status seems a good idea. also, i think we have to start a new section where tutorials, only tutorials and links to tutorials are to be posted.that'd stop a few people from asking stupid questions. also some sort of self cleaning mechanism, where idle accounts get deleted after a certain period of time.

[edraket]

I haven't been posting work for months. Sorry but I just never got anything out of it. Even when I asked specific questions on in the WIP forum. I do enjoy the Random Musings. It's like an artist-Cafe. SO I go there sometimes.

Anyways..here's my two cents...

If I understand correctly posts with stuff that is not up to the standards would be deleted. Can anyone tell me how this is different from only admitting people based on the quality of their work?
Oh... because they can post replies? Why would we want that?

I am personally sick of getting replies that don't get me anywhere.
Shit like:
Wow that looks very van-goegy!

And how would be decided who of the current 7000+ members are newbies?

The Faq would be a very good idea. Especially if it would have a collection of links to usefull information in either local threads of websites.

If help is needed I would gladly volunteer to help collect things.