[oDD]

i'm afraid

[The Stauminator]

I think i've been around a year or so... maybe a bit longer. I don't post much because for the most part, I have always felt that this forum had the most talented artists of any of the forums i visit, and I never felt up to par. Some of me recent stuf I have posted... but I got much better feedback on the old crappy stuff, so I see where people are coming from. I wish Dhab would update the site.... i mean his last update was like a year ago... and if he doesn't care about it, why should we?

[Akolyte]

HOLD ME I'M SCARED

[Mag82]

errr... it says "software error" so I *hope* this IS a software error.

Anyways, I'm a newbie to this forum and I'm proud of it. I first visited dhabih's site through the link on one of his images in 98 or 99 and was fascinated by his work, always looking for updates and even trying to imitate it with traditional means.
As to this forum - I didn't know it's that great! I joined in recently more by accident than anything and got a fascination out of it comparable to first looking at dhabih's site. Reading this thread gave me a sad feeling about the whole thing although I really like it.

I did notice some of the mentioned things:
-some people dumping their art
-many newbies posting ...errr newbie art
-some (well, one *cough*flat*cough*) people wasting the forums
-being ignored when asking for crits

But the positive things prevail - I started posting and got crits and paintovers by people I consider advanced, if not professional (dunno anyone for real, so...), which I really really apreciated and made me visit more often and practice stuff. These forums even made me reconsider my career again - maybe art school? Plus I got myself a graphics tablet (well... my second one from ebay, the first one broke after a week lol).

I'm positive about the whole thing, but I do support some minor, I'd say, changes. Posting rules would be a great thing, and a "quick draw" forum, including posts of (some) newbies. Gotta watch out that's not gonna end up dead if not cared about by anyone but the newbies.

Well, that's my point of view.

Ah and I'd still refer this to other people (maybe dunno enough forums), I think it's great!

[Svanur]

This place has sure changed, I remember when all art related posts went into one category. Some how I feel it started when the forum got finished and WIP forums. People would post half finished sketches but never finish them(Even I am guilty of that... )

But believe me a smaller forum(not allowing everyone to register) isn't going to help very much, Lumental and some other forums are proof of that.

Ah well I shouldn't complain, so far I like this forum the most of all the forums I go to. Here are people that have a certain personality which give this forum a unique character, Lunatique, Dr. Bang(and many others, these were the first two names who I though of first) and even some ogres(Flat, Stneil and many others.)

[oDD]

so some things was already said but anyway:

1. we can't make seperate forum or even seprate section for newbies as they would never get any c&c

2. make more threads like "speed painting" or "gasmask thread" where people can post stuff no matter how bad they are- i'm never pissed when i see some crappy art in such thread because i just scroll down, and the forum is clean. make the draw club and something like that

3. moderators should delete (don't close!) post with art if it's under certain level. Send a message to the user telling him that he should start by posting stuff in such threads as in ponit 2.

4. Make limitations like "you can start posting two weeks after registration" (some people come here only once to dump their art), "you can create one thread in finished work gallery per week" "no reply limitations" "you can create thread in finished gallery section when youve got at least 10 replys on someone else art(mabybe it's possible to set the minimum lenght of that comments so answers like "wow" wouldn't count)"

5.As always, we should make a compilation of best threads on certain topics so people wouldn't ask the same things -> clean digital discussion

6. Yeah and more power to the moderators and some better software than this old ubb

*stops dreaming , goes to bed*

[oDD]

and 7. Delete posts where people are showing their sites

[Guy-Incognito]

I actually believe that Half-Life is partially (if not fully) responsible for the over crowding of 'newbies'. Think of how many people visit the Valve Website looking for some cool imagery of their favourite game. Next they stumble upon Sijun and have a sudden flash of inspiration. Then we have masses of amateurs mixing with the pros, admitting to their incapability�s.

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Guy-Incognito ]

[S4Sb]

Odd! You made some awesome suggestions! Iespecially LOVE number 4 and 2.

All power to sumaleth!

[gLitterbug]

Suma for President!

But as always, all those suggestions and stuff will never become reality. Somehow Dhabih is similar to God, not interfering, but only watching and not even that we do know.

[2Fan]

Hello, I've been lurking here since 1999 and Im a friend of Binke (for those of you that still remember him, he was my neighbour). And since I never ever have posted here, and only registred last year but failed to gather the courage to post, I tought that this was the perfect opportunity to give my 2 cents...

Yes sijun is the mother of all art boards, and I'm ashamed to admit that lately I've been sidevisiting it with poo(cough). But the fact stands Its not THE BOARD anymore. And as many of you have pointed out all things come to an end.

But whats important, is the fact that with all things in life comes a obligation, I dont think the people whom have critizised Dhabih have badgered him. But given him som constuctive critic. After all thats what this board is meant for; constructive critic. And finaly someone/ones have gathered the courage to do so. And Dhabih need to take a look on the board and either kill it or put som time in it. Like givin mods etc (suma has some nice ideas to ).

Now if he decides to kill it, there is other boards. But I dont think there will be a future board equal to sijun - unless the sijun people (us) do something about it instead of hoping for a Dhabih (bless him for the board and its looong run at the top) to come and rescue the day. How hard is it to start a bulltin board 6.0 on a web page, and spread the word within the community.

This board has meant more for me than any other webpage/community. And It would be a damn shame if it were to die.

I think there is a need for change, but maybe we shouldnt put our trust in Dhabih's hands, since from what I read he doesnt seem to want that responsibility. I think there are other among us whom do.

Those are my tought regarding this subject - what more there is - and I think there is alot - will surface if people dont give up on the subject.

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: 2Fan ]

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: 2Fan ]

[Ian Jones]

I think I have a useful idea. First and foremost we need to take action, something viable, that we can implement easily. So I suggest:

I think we need to update the FAQ. We need a place where we can direct ppl with common questions, it is as simple as that.

We also need a 'FORUM GUIDELINES' page. A place where we can all go and read about how to exist on the forum, in the way we envision it to be.

1. etiquette

2. Clear guidelines about what content to post. Where to post it. What to expect in response.

3. Guidelines for critiquing (almost the same as etiquette, I geuss.)

Overall I think what we need is a Sijun Training Course. A place that takes us through training. We need this sort of thing to force every new registering member to see and understand what we want the forum ot be like. I geuss we also need to take some veterans through it aswell..

I propose that with the absence of any control over the Sijun server, that we get a new place, perhaps someone's personal website. We should then use that website to post permanent articles like an FAQ, GUIDELINES, TECH HELP, TUTORIALS etc. We could then use that website as the 'Sijun Training Course'.

It would be nice to have a permanent thread sitting at the top of the list, that newbies would see and look at.

Any more ideas?

[Lunatique]

Here's another thought.

IF Dhabih doesn't take any action, and the current mods can't do much without more power granted by him--let's just start another forum that's meant to REPLACE sijun.

1)This new forum will implement all the cool suggestions made by people.

2)This forum will be like a combination of lumental and eatpoo. It'll be like lumental in the sense that art is taken more seriously, and like eatpoo in the sense that it's very well moderated. BUT, it'll not have the weaknesses of those. It's won't be invitation only, and it won't be blatantly offensive on purpose(I don't mind eatpoo's political incorrectness at all, BTW).

And if this forum becomes reality, we'll just let the sijuners migrate there on their own will.

So, anyone who's up to the responsibility of running a huge forum? Mind you, the moderators will take care of the daily chores of patrolling, while you just provide the space and the bandwidth.

[Ian Jones]

This would be a great idea Lunatique. Thing is would it work? I mean I would get very sentimental about it, and maybe not leave.

We need some solid gaurantee's, then we may be willing to start afresh.

[Rinaldo]

we need a super FAQ. anyone interested in making one big huge (digital)art/sijun FAQ? I know there are people out there who could help me do this. just so much repeat crap on here. we have a wealth of info on this MB. and you should only have to say something once...farm out topics and just get people to write stuff and collect threads from the past...doesn't have to be totaly correct..just to the better level of comment that we have seen on here from time to time...can be sujective comment...

[rant]

I think one of the biggest problems is that when you are starting off you need to shut up and listen more. and I know that sounds ultra harsh, but I am serious, I would have said the same thing when I was a n00b here. there is so much info around. people don't listen ot crits enough. don't think about what they are doing. (and some people seem to give out really bad lengthy "know it all" crits.....which is a problem). there needs to be a FAQ for that kind of stuff. people want instant solutions. they refuse to take on well meant and inteligent critique a lot of the time....and sure, sometimes it's a genuine conflict of interest. but the great thing is you can discuss it. we don't get much discussion anymore.
I think all those ideas about limmiting posting rights is a great idea if it can be implemented. have a sketch/messabout topic maybe. that's waht the speed paintings thread is for. about 10% of the stuff I do I would really like serious indepth critique on. but it's realy hard to signal "I need help with this" when there is so much "this is another drawing I did" stuff on here. I don't post all my scribbles anymore because it would just add to the spam.
higher value/quality of critique is essential. raise the level of comment and lower the ammount of threads.

[/rant]

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Rinaldo ]

[Sumaleth]

Yes, I think we've found the catch22 here;

. The newbies are diluting the forum.
. The newbies are the forum.

I have been thinking about how to lift the quality for some time now, and have discussed some thoughts with Dhabih, but I've come to the conclusion that there's NO clean answer. Every option on the list has about the same volume of risks associated.

Dhabih can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he recognizes this fact so has been happy to leave things as they are. The Sijun forums ARE going incredibly well, regardless the change in tone over the years, and you have to expect things will continue to change. So while it's working you do risk loosing more than you gain by changing things.

Personally, I'd be keen to try de-newbie-izing the forum a bit, just to see how it goes. It doesn't have to be anything drastic at this point - perhaps something as simple as a brief, concise RULES OF POSTING document explaining that there's no point posting 5 minute drawings unless you're spooge etc.

Perhaps there could even be a single thread devoted to newbie 5 minute drawings, just to collate them into one place, but still be part of the main forum.

(just thinking out loud here. and when I use the term 'newbie' I don't mean it as a slam -- we were all new to this once)

That last idea would work better if moderators could move posts onto the end of another thread, but we can't. Which means we'd have to close or delete wasteful threads. Harsh, but it might still be worth experimenting with.

I'll think this out some more and perhaps make some recommendations to Da Man.

Row.

[Dr. Bang]

the only request I want from Dhabih is to make you and freddio the board ADMIN instead of cheapass MODERATOR. That ways, you can BAN people and create MORE moderators. This will benefits every one!

[S4Sb]

Luna: I think there's another problem, besides the sentimental users who would be left behind. What I really liked about this place is that even if some people went away because they were fed up with the situation here, they were able to come back someday. If we move over to somewhere else, none of them might ever find that place. And it would be really sad, if chris lichtner for example wants to come back, but can't find the place anymore.

ack! english =)

[gLitterbug]

"while you just provide the space and the bandwidth." - LOL @Lunatique

Btw, what IS required to run a forum like this(not talking EZboard here)? I�d really like to know.

[ceenda]

Is a DSL connection enough to run a forum like this or does it really need to be a T1/T3?

[gLitterbug]

I surely depends on how much upload your DSL would have, but I�m affraid even with 512 it�ll be too little.

[FSME]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mag82:
I did notice some of the mentioned things:
-some people dumping their art
-many newbies posting ...errr newbie art
-some (well, one *cough*flat*cough*) people wasting the forums
-being ignored when asking for crits

---

Thing is: how do you critizise a really well done (finished) picture? I see the picture and I think "wow" but then there's three replies to the post already all starting with "wow" and I don't want to do that 'cause I don't think that it's necessary. On the other hand it is easy to crit a newbie-ish post 'cause it's..., well, newbie. I'm not saying people should dump their art (heck, no) but rather that beginners should be respected (we were all start-ups once after all). Same goes for their efforts .
The WIP forum is where Newbies should post most of their stuff since this is where the pros (and the rest, who says a newbie can't properly C&C a newbie?) can actually influence their work.

Let's face it: Newbies can learn a whole lot more by crits than pros can. Pros "only" refine their style but newbies improve their's (hopefully, hey, this is a perfect world assumption ). Unfortunately, professional work is a whole lot nicer to look at and way more useful for personal improvement when reading what people say about "howdunnit".
But one thing goes for newbies as well as the rest: it's always nice to receive replies whether they are compliments or critics but it's simply good to know there is people out there evaluating your work.

Comments:
a)when saying newbie in this post I'm refering to starting artists, not to starting members (being one myself )
b)no forum is perfect but from what else I've seen out there we're pretty good

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: FSME ]

[Daniel Lieske]

Since I'm an admin of an art forum myself (in german language) I would like to add my two cents to this discussion.

If you regard a forum as a place of knowledge distribution, it's just natural that it dies some day. Just think about what a school does: in a school you learn together with people of your skill level, advance in skill and finally leave the school.
Imagine a school where no one would leave but where there would be a steady input of new unskilled students and ALL students would have classes in the same ONE room - that won`t work! And that's the reason why forums have to expire and new forums have to be created. As a newbie you can only learn from a forum, when you join it on from the start because you have to experience the growth of the knowledge base. When a newbie visits an expired forum, he has no chance to find the information that lies burried under the mountain of uninteresting stuff. He must see it grow and participate on raising the knowledge to learn from it.
One thing that's hard is that all the "lessons" have to be repeated. When you start a new sijun you will have to build up all the information from scratch. But that's exactly what a school does: every generation learns the same again and again. Old students leave new students arrive and they gladly learn what the older students already know.

So, get this new place going! It's the only solution!

[-- Transcendent --]

99.62% of this thread is mindless rethoric. Like this post.

[PixHortHiT]

If all of us just started being a little kinder towards each other and a little more generous with crits and comments, and dropped most grudges towards the artists some of you dont think fit in here at sijun, like FLAT, he is a character, and communuties like this needs them to preserve the diversity of things....

Cant think of anything more..

ps: BTW check my #

[egerie]

You found your way back PixHortHiT ? *impressed by the member # and especially the members' number of posts.

[StrangeFate]

guess i'm just in random typing lust...

I'm for a 'read first FAQ' for now, that tells people that some kind of effort is expected.
If someone sucks at art, he obviously shouldn't post his quicker or average sketches, rather his better work (that takes more than a day to do hopefully)where he put effort into.
I hope that would reduce the amount of useless posts and on the remaining newbie art you could at least tell that the guy put effort into it, and he just _can't_ do better atm ...and whoever is willing to put time and effort into a piece is worth helping.


Don't think a new Forum would work. I'd have enough bandwidth where my site is hosted and hundreds of megs place but still, new forum: nah.
I wouldn't want to miss the colors and software of this one anyway, dunno why tho.

And you can't compare a forum with a school, a forum is a place you like to go to, unlike school, where your're happy when you're done with it and can take distance.
Learning is not the sole purpose here and therefore it doesn't has to die.
It's more like an artists bar, when you're not in the mood or position to learn/help, you come for the free drinks, the art posted and topic discussions with other artists.
From time to time you need a longer break tho and new faces, that's normal.

Sumal33th said that Newbies are the forum and that the forum is running better than before.
That's tho, judging the state of the forum only by the traffic probably, not by the content posted. I wouldn't mind less traffic if that raises the quality per post.

A 'newbie' Forum wouldn't work. That stuff never works good, it's a bit of racism and it hurts when you're degraded in any way, that happens enough in RealLife and other forums. Besides that noone posting in the 'normal' forum would ever visit the newbie one and help, which is what makes this forum different from others imo.

[Mindsiphon]

Tried to post a message on Swarms post in Finished works and I got this.
---------------------------------------------
FYI
Sorry! We have flood-control activated. You cannot post within a certain number of seconds of your last post. Please try again after this period of time elapses. The current number of seconds required between posts is: 30
� Please use your browser's back button to return.
---------------------------------------------
Never seen this before.
Has there always been flood control?
Maybe Dhab turned it on and is taking steps to resolve some things with the forums.
If so it would be cool if he could give us a heads up on what's happening.

[FSME]

How about a forced FAQ? You register and you gotta read it.
I remember the first couple of forums I went to: I never read the FAQs and got flamed by people with "read the f**cking FAQs page!". Now that I'm older and wiser (am I really, hehe) I do but for our own good: make them read it all day long!!

[oDD]

some of u are missing few things here. There should be an app (probably on sourceforge.net) that converts messages from ubb to phpbb same with members. So we could do that and make the theme exactly the same as this one. So the new forum would have new body but the same old soul