[DarkVVulf]

I've been watching this forum for years, I remember when he first started.
Took me awhile though to finally sign up and post something- I was mainly too nervous and self-conscious to post any artwork.

I dare not think though where I would be in skill without dropping by this forum.


I haven't kept up on Dhabib though, all I know is he started work at Valve and suddenly vanished in a puff of busy.

[ July 04, 2002: Message edited by: DarkVVulf ]

[merlyns]

he there I jus't finished reading the topic.
as you can see I'm here for 2 months and I love this forum.

I'm young and I need guidince in my art path I tought this was the perfect forum. the reason why some people can't reply very good is lazy nis and some people are struggling with a lake of art expirince (I'm talking from expirince but the better I get the more useful comments I can give to you so please don't mind if my comments are to short

now he dhabih thing well first of all I'm really corious How his art is now. But I thing he should hand over the forum to somebody els to keep this board up and running.

-david

[Awetopsy]

dang this thread has alot of old-timers in it.. (old timers in a good way)

Im gettin all teary-eyed and stuff.

[burn0ut]

werd.

i think the mods do a good job keeping stuff in order here, just last week someone spammed the board and it was taken care of pretty quickly wasnt it?

[StrangeFate]

I'd be for any sort of order too, i've been visiting the forum once every few months only since it seems that's really lost.

I don't even feel like recommending it to other artists anymore which is a shame.

[the_insider]

i guess now from reading this thread, i noticed that it's true people sometimes dump their art in here etc. but i have come to love this place because i've learned so much already just being here a few months--i HAVE recommended it to other artists...the reason's because sijun seems to have so much variety the it's never boring and is always changing--i remember my older bro used to look up to DHABIH a few years ago--when DHAB was 19? too bad i never got the chance to talk to him..*sigh*

[pixelsoldier]

He gave a lot to the digital art world as a whole. Lots of people fell in love with his style (dodge/burn) way back when he started (including myself). It'd be nice to see how he has evolved in his own art after so long.

I just think it's a really shitty thing to do to just ignore so many people for so long. He seems like an arrogant bastard to me now, like.... some kinda of high-and-mighty king who is too far above his subjects to consider the idea of actually speaking to them. I'm sure this isn't REALLY the case, but how could one assume otherwise given his contributions?

I betcha he is reading this right now. Say something, damnit! Say something!

[gLitterbug]

Damn, if we just would know where he lives!

[StormVermin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by StrangeFate:
I'd be for any sort of order too, i've been visiting the forum once every few months only since it seems that's really lost.

I don't even feel like recommending it to other artists anymore which is a shame.

---

SF, milk here, didn't know you were an oldie here too. Very nice to know though..

I seldomly recommend this site to people anymore. I won't recommend it to friends though... never.

[akrute]

yeah.. i know what a lot of you guys are tlaking bout.. i havent realli been here for long either.. just a bit but i remember when i first lurked (still am ) the content and quality in the forums was much higher.. maybe its koz i was such a newbie then.. but still.. it seems that now the art being posted is of much lesser quality .. i guess thats what happens though as time passes`` just blabbing.
yes and dhab should come back.. and bring back the -----club.

[Gimbal8]

I've been coming here for a few years now. Originally posting as Gimbal before I lost the password and couldn't get it emailed to me since I switched ISP's.
And there always seems to be a thread talking about how things were better before. Even way back when I first starting coming here. There does seem to be less interaction with some of the more skilled artist that used to frequent here, that I do kinda notice. But what are the other things that are going on that are causing people to eye these forums with sighs of hopelessness? What is it from 'back then' that is missing now? Is it something that can be fixed with more moderators or with Dhabih's return? Is it because commenting on peoples art tends to erupt in flames more often and so people do it less now?

And what would bring the old timers back to post more often?

[pixelsoldier]

Money.

Seriously though, you're very right, Gimbal. It's really the interaction with the pros that I miss the most. Especially with Ron (Fredflickstone). He helped me enormously. Craig always does too, but I don't blame him for no longer wanting to dirty himself in the Sijun cesspool. There were countless others, too. I miss Chris Lichtner's input a lot, as well as Greg Pro's.

Ah well. I for one can't blame THEM. But I can blame Dhabih for ignoring us! Dhabih, why don't you love us anymore?

[rodzilla-x]

wow something is wrong with these forums? what went wrong? ive only been here for a few weeks and i think it is a great forum i remember the first time i stepped foot in dhabib's site and looked at his tutorial on the guy with the sword i was like wtf i wanna do that haha ... i started ghosting the forums for like a long time then yeah i started posting, seems like a pretty good community ... looking at the artwork and trying stuff out myself i have learnt more about art in the past few weeks than ever i even went to get a wacom tablet! although ive never met the guy im sure he was a great guy. At least there arent no mad spammers or ne one here ...

[Matt Elder]

hmmm... I think one thing that defines a community is equal give and take. Seems that everyone wants to take without giving. Way back when, people would comment on others works and the favour would be returned. It worked well and encourages people to engage in a community.

What Dhab wants to do is up to him so give the guy a break.

Good to see some of the oldies in the thread, obviously there is a reason and feelin' for why the forum became what it did.

[smalbrain]

i used to know some bloke called debbie - he was malaysian - funny stuff. i think dhablih is pronounced debbie hehe - but this topic says dhabib - haha - i pronounce sijun as it is written - but i bet its some other crazy shit. like cyan.

[gLitterbug]

I found the forum pretty much when it started out, but I never did more than reading it, because I thought/knew, that I wasn�t "good enough" as artist back then. I registered when I thought I had drawn something good enough to show.

I wish more people over here would know what skill level they�re at and post that way. It�s really hard to give crits for much of the drawings posted in recent times. But if you say "Go home again and practice the basic stuff and come back if you are able to draw something that is actually worth commenting on", you�re rude and whatnot.

I rarely post stuff, most things I draw is practice stuff I�d never show over here, simply because it ain�t good enough and crits on them wouldn�t help me, because I already know that basic things are wrong with them.
Too much people think getting critiques or praise will make you a better artist, but in reality practice makes you a better artist, critique is only aid, no substitute.

It�s just too bad that Dhabih doesn�t come over here anymore, I never "met" him here on Sijun. Me registered after he "left".
It�s strange though, that he is "affraid" of this place or something like that, I mean if it were my place and there would be something I don�t like about it, I�d change it and if necessary with machingunz and grenadez
And I�m 100% sure that IF he would jump back in here, he�d be some sort of level 90 �berwarrior that could wipe out all evil

[Blind]

I don't understand why everyone's bashing Dhabih. He put the forum together and gave a bunch of people a place to get together and talk art... isn't that enough? If the man's too busy or is not inclined to participate, what business is it of ours? He doesn't owe us anything. If he ever decides to show up here someday, that'll be a pleasant surprise. Until then, I wish him well.

I'm just glad he put the place together, despite what it's evolved into. When you get this many people in the same room, of course you're going to have bumps in the road - we're human, after all. But it's still a great place, and quite unique. Let's just leave it be. If the Moderators find some ways to make some improvements, all the power to them. If not, it's fine as is.

Idea for the Moderators: I bet 2000 of the user accounts on this board are inactive. Is it worth cleaning them out? Should there be some limit on inactivity?

[Lunatique]

What a dilemma.

Lumental was created to remedy the elements that caused the deterioration of sijun, but as we all witnessed, it became a graveyard.

Professionals are generally too busy.

Advanced artists are generally too immersed in their own artistic ascension.

The more open and generous ones were the catalysts that made up the unique chemistry of sijun, but has now faded.

Can we blame just the newbies? I really don't know.

Sijun without newbies will become lumental, and a community in perpetual stasis is not what we want or need.

Are there examples of other forums where these problems are dealt with effectively? It seems once a community gets too big, the inevitable happens.

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[Loki]

As I said before - my view on things is that (most, open) forums have a 'natural' life expectancy and progress from birth through teenage years through to retirement. There's really nothing that can be done.

Us sijunites, we are just like cells in an organism - one cell can hardly do anything (except certain, ahem, cancercells *cough* flat *cough*), but the sum of all of us makes the sijun organism, which grows, gets older and one of these days ... dies.

But not fucking yet.

[Sumaleth]

Dhabih is pronounced zah-bee I think.

--

I've been keeping out of this "the good old days" stuff, but it's time to set some stuff straight.

The forum is definitely different now compared to the first year or so. Back then the majority of members were professional and/or high profile digital artists and there was a lot of artistic interaction between everyone.

These days the professionals are vastly outnumbered by beginners and interaction is now basically limited to comments.

Although it's worth noting that there are -more- professionals posting now than ever before. It's just a game of ratios.

--

I think what a lot of the older members miss is that artistic interaction stuff. In other words, the repainting and retouching to show ideas, and the painting exercises.

There's no reason it couldn't happen now, but it was primarily the result of certain members who were willing to go that extra step in their support of new artists. And the fact that there were several of these types of artists all active at the same time kept the momentum going.

But anyone who has done that sort of thing knows that there is one certainty; you can't keep it up forever.

You rely on new artists joining the frey with solid artistic knowledge and the drive to pass it on, but we never really found that second generation and so the practice largely ended.

Spooge still drops jaws from time to time with a repaint however, and there are a lot of learning artists on Sijun willing to take a crack at a repaint here and there (esp. in WIP), so there is the shadow of past practices here.

--

What can be done to bring back those old practices?

We'd either need to find some new artists with a background in teaching art and the time needed to help out, OR everyone here who can offer worthwhile visual reworkings would need to get back into the habit.

Either could happen. Everything happens in ebbs and flows, whims and patterns.

The LARGE number of "beginner" level posts has really diluted the overall quality of art though, so I don't think the enthusiasm level is really where it would need to be. Every post used to be worth looking at, but now you have to wade though a lot of 5 minute "this is the first thing I've ever drawn, please comment" type posts.

But these are also the artists keeping the forum as active as it is.

I've been wondering how a "Beginner" forum would go. I can see a lot of benefits, but there's also a lot of stigma attached to things like that.

--

And that's how it is.

Row (one of them moderator types)

[ceenda]

Suma: The words "nail" and "head" just go hand in hand with the majority of your posts.

One thing though, and it's a touchy subject.

Beginners forums.

It's generally percieved that alot of inspiration for coming to Sijun is because alot of professional and high profile artists post here. Right now, Scott is posting some of the most awesome stuff and tutorials I've come across on the forums in ages. But a post like his could easily be lost amongst the hundreds of threads being posted each week.

Unfortunately, if we had a beginner's subforum, it:

A) Wouldn't get used voluntarily, as there's a greater chance of getting crits from more experienced artists in another forum.

B) Wouldn't guarantee that everyone was treated fairly.

It's well known that many people hate the 'elite' connotations of many online art galleries at the moment. However, it's the only way to ensure that people are being presented with some of the best art on the net. The whole reason I took an interest in Sijun 2 years ago.

Back then I was pretty embarrassed to be showing my art (heh, still am). However, the limited size of the forum back then meant that the other members were more forgiving. The VASTNESS of Sijun now has distanced members from each other. We have predefined concepts of "guru" and "newbie" which tar every member who tries to participate.

It's a tough one. You can't have your Dorito AND eat it.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ceenda ]

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ceenda ]

[zak]

what lunatique said is true. we should think of something to solve this problem.
*starts thinking.
maybe we should all just try harder. advanced and pro's helping out more, and well.... newbies practising more??? also when you give advice, the person says yeah, i see what u mean, im gonna change thatand then you come back and noone really cares. its just the same. that makes you think why the hell should i care then? im not saying that everyones advice should be followed, but some that do make sense, and are genuinly helpful should be addressed

[Matt Elder]

I'm glad that zak is at least trying to find a solution. Unfortunately it appears to be a little bit of a catch 22 situation. You can post crits in peoples threads, ok they may not agree with them and what have you but you could at least take the time to post crits in their threads (sort of a way to say 'thanks for taking the time to post in my thread').

Unfortunately this doesn't happen. I once would post at least 2-3 paragraphs of crits and ideas but do you think someone could be bothered commenting on something I'd done on the rare occasion that I would post something. That was also happening to others who would take the time to help others out. Would someone then have the courtesy to do the same, no. Quickest way to turn people off. Solve this problem and the rest will take care of itself.

[akrute]

mm... well there realli isnt a way to avoid this like somebody else said before forgot who... but whatever happens i think there'll be just more problems and this is just the way it is.. as times passes things change.. i guess all the "newbies" shouldnt just post anything that they want some crit on.. and we should all try to crit constructively... we should all stop posting here and the people that are good nuff should attempt to spare some time to crit peoples work..
or something

[Mindsiphon]

I originally registered under the alias RobT back in October 2000 and when I first joined and posted my first image here I was welcomed with open arms and got lots of good crits and suggestions on my work. These forums help me to fine tune my technique and grow as an artist.

These forums are different than what they were back then but mainly because of the misunderstandings of the large amounts of newcomers and people that just want to display their art and are not interested in critiques.
I've seen stuff in finished work where the poster said.
"I was bored and did this in 20 minutes. I don't know what it is but I thought I would post it."
or
"I'm not an artist but I like this place and decided to draw this"

I'm not discouraging anyone from learning to draw/paint whatever but there are too many members here that are not serious about art.

I've seen lots of stuff like that and it seems most of the newcomers come here just to look at art and socialize without really taking art seriously.

There is still art here from people that want to display and get some feedback but the forums are not as much of an interactive workshop as in the past.
The reason for this is that the
Some posters may not like the critiques they get
Or the critique seeker misinterpreting the critique as an attack
Or the resentment and retaliation one may get for a helpful paintover or critique.
Or the poster who asks for crits and doesn't get them
Or the poster who doesn't ask for crits and gets tons of them.

The poster may encourage critiques but then argues with the critiques they get.
I've given critiques on occasion but tend to shy away from doing so because of the above situations.

[StrangeFate]

It could be avoided a little bit if some people wouldn't post 5 min sketches in the finished work forum and if newbies would generally work more on their stuff/style before posting.
The point of life is not to post in the forum every single thing you sketch.
The more you bring the overall quality of the posted work down, the more people you'll have posting more of it.

As for helping, until a certain level there's isn't much crit will help improve.
Posting horrible stuff and asking for c&c is often pointless.
If everything in an image is off the author should see that for himself and don't even post the image until he fixes it or does better next time.

If he can't see most of the problems by himself he should go back to the drawing board for the next half year. There's a certain amount of improvement one has to do by himself before having enough brains in the matter to understand and be able to follow any given advices.

If he still wants advice, there are hundreds of art forums out there where his work won't dissapear to the second page within 1-2 days, and where he'll find more and better people to help him on that level.
imo.

This sure doesn't sounds very friendly towards newbies in general. I just want *1* forum again where the majority is not newbie work, like it is everywhere else.

[Loki]

Oh, and it looks like random musings is nuked ... anyone else having problems with it?
Could be that it's just me though ...

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Loki ]

[Mindsiphon]

Yeah weird.
Maybe Dhabih is upgrading the forums or adding new categories.

You can access random musings from here
http://www.sijun.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_daily

[Dr. Bang]

holy shit, i thought he got pissed at us.

[edible snowman]

are you happy now? the forum's broken or something. at least for me. you bastards jinxed it.