[pbechard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lunatique:

We have SEEN with our own eyes the results of of Craig being overly generous and helpful. There were artists who ended up working in styles IDENTICAL to Craig. These guys had the talent and the skill in the first place, and after learning about Craig's techniques in detail, they copied his signature EXACTLY, stroke for stroke, even down the the subject matter.

Thank God Craig didn't leave sijun due to bad experiences like that.

We don't blindly kiss Craig ass. We respect him and we love the guy. You haven't been here long enough to have witnessed just how generous, kind, patient, selfless, and inspiring this man has been throughout sijun's history.

---

humm. i see your point. but i must say i still disagree. it doesint matter if they are copying his style EXACTLY down to the brush stroke, as long as its an original work. its progressive for the style and for the artist. if you really loved craig's work. you wouldent protect it. do you want the style to die when he does? its true that he is making innovations to it on his own, but the most profound innovations to styles usually come from artists who didint invent it, since they have less of an attachment to it. iv been reading this board for serveral years. so i have seen some of criag's helpfullness, and i really respect his work. i think that he is one of the greatest painters in this generation. but lets be realistic. antiprogessive protection? is that such a good thing? im intersted to hear craig's view on the subject, i dont think iv heard it before. understand it is up to craig wether or not he will answer requests for help, it should not be up to people like you to come in and flame people for making these requests in the first place.
hypothetical situations a) i go back in time to the first impressionist with a high powered rifle. and i then proceed to kill every person that tries impressionism. it might be good for that first impressionist (or mabey not). but am i right or wrong doing it in the end? (obviously not from a moral point of view. but from an artistic point of view)

and "deal with it?": what. deal with every person who comes and flames a child just because they are trying to learn, asking about a paticular process that we all like? what do you think all these posts are about? this is my way of "dealing with it" (im not saying every person that asks for spooge pointers is a child, i am less offended when you flame an adult because they can deal with it better. but im sure that some kid has come on this board and looked for help learning a paticular method in this new digital medium, only to be met by hate and bigotry. thats what really makes me angry.

roundeye: yes we are. i dont think you realize it. even though some of your posts seem to be insulting and petty. i dont really disagree with any points you have made.

i feel the need to stress again that im not saying that these views are correct. they are just my opinion. productive comments always welcome.

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: pbechard ]

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: pbechard ]

[pixelsoldier]

Ahem. Glad to see I'm not alone on this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I stated mine, now let me have it.

It just so happens that lots of people agree with that point of view.

[pbechard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pixelsoldier:
Ahem. Glad to see I'm not alone on this. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I stated mine, now let me have it.

It just so happens that lots of people agree with that point of view.

---

if you cant actually defend your point of view. it isint a point of view. its a label you attached to yourself.

[jr]

It is my opinion that as an individual it�s best not to be an imitator but to find your own way. Remember that saying? Innovator not imitator. But if we�re going to judge your artwork through the eyes of a historian 200 hundred years from now�.sure, it�s not important to be an individual at all we�re all just a bunch of apes.
Don�t get me wrong , if whatever you�re doing moves you or pays your bills, good riddance. I would never criticize someone who does that. It just bothers me that every person has their own voice and their own way but some would rather mimic others. Maybe I�m just being an idealistic youngin but there�s got to be more to life than that.

[Lunatique]

pbechard- you are missing the point.

I'm saying that people have STOLEN BUSINESS AWAY from Craig, and that is NOT ok. Imitating his style and then stealing his business is just not ethical. It's almost like they were impersonating his artistic presence in the industry and then offering services at a lower price. Are you saying that's ok?

Yes, young newbies come to learn, and it's ok to teach them. But, when a newbie shows up, you have NO idea if that person is a seasoned artist looking to steal Craig's business, or just a kid. If that person does not post a link to his website, you just ASSUME it's a young teenager seeking knowledge?

I personally think Craig has given away too much, and I feel bad for him. I also wish all the people imitating his style would try and find their own vision.

Learning his steps and techniques will only produce artists who are emulating his style. But learning from his display of knowledge, you'll get far more out of it. The rendering style is only superficial--it's what's behind the rendering that makes Craig special.

[worm]

hes not gonna reply to this.. or sort it out you know..

[pbechard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lunatique:
pbechard- you are missing the point.

I'm saying that people have STOLEN BUSINESS AWAY from Craig, and that is NOT ok. Imitating his style and then stealing his business is just not ethical. It's almost like they were impersonating his artistic presence in the industry and then offering services at a lower price. Are you saying that's ok?

Yes, young newbies come to learn, and it's ok to teach them. But, when a newbie shows up, you have NO idea if that person is a seasoned artist looking to steal Craig's business, or just a kid. If that person does not post a link to his website, you just ASSUME it's a young teenager seeking knowledge?

I personally think Craig has given away too much, and I feel bad for him. I also wish all the people imitating his style would try and find their own vision.

Learning his steps and techniques will only produce artists who are emulating his style. But learning from his display of knowledge, you'll get far more out of it. The rendering style is only superficial--it's what's behind the rendering that makes Craig special.

---

Lunatique: actually i believe it is ok for someone to emulate him and take his business. This is how our economy works. It is also a strong driving force behind innovation. someone comes up with the idea for a fast food hamburger joint. it becomes successful then everybody and thier mother owns one. Forcing the original to get better. The only way to hold a successful monopoly in anything is to set up barriers to prevent people from entering your market. With digital art you really cant do that save withholding information. Which is completely fine for craig to do. My main beef are with people who flame other people because they come here for help to learn the techniques behind behind craig's style in this new medium.

As for assuming the person is just someone trying to learn.. ever heard of presumed innocent until proven guilty? there is a very good reason behind taking that stance.

As for people imitating is style. That is also fine as long as its thier own original work. Noone bitches and whines about people imitating older styles. how come people do with this new style?

as for the rendering comment... exactly!, took the words right out of my mouth. its his creatativity that makes his works special. not his rendering. so whats the issue in letting other people use his rendering to express thier own creativity? If craig wants to keep his business. all he needs to do is produce stuff that is of excellent quality. I dont think the best way of going about that is by preventing quality increases in other artists. but then again. im bias because i utterly hate companies like Microsoft

quote:

---

Originally posted by jr:
It is my opinion that as an individual it’s best not to be an imitator but to find your own way. Remember that saying? Innovator not imitator. But if we’re going to judge your artwork through the eyes of a historian 200 hundred years from now….sure, it’s not important to be an individual at all we’re all just a bunch of apes.
Don’t get me wrong , if whatever you’re doing moves you or pays your bills, good riddance. I would never criticize someone who does that. It just bothers me that every person has their own voice and their own way but some would rather mimic others. Maybe I’m just being an idealistic youngin but there’s got to be more to life than that.

---

interesting points. not that iv taken many psychology courses. but i believe humans naturally learn by imitation. when learning. copying other peoples styles is a great method to increase your skills and broaden your expierance. your comment about the historians and apes didint really make sense to me. my point was. how can you call them morons now and artists then? And as for you not critizing people for imitating... the only reason why i first responded to you was because you were insulting those artists who were copying that guy's style. i dont have his name handy. just scroll up.

and as for your comment about people having thier own voice and people just mimicing others. i guess i need to say this again and again before it gets through. usings someone elses style, as long as your creating original works, is unique to you, thus its is your own 'voice'. every artist in the whole world uses styles and methods pioneered by someone else, noone goes alone the whole way. all this seems really hypocritical to me.

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: pbechard ]

[pixelsoldier]

Do you realize how incredibly annoying it must be for Craig to enter this section of Sijun and see endless threads that look similar to:

"Craig Mullins' Process Discovered!"

"Let's Try and Bite Craig's Style!"

"Can Someone Tell Me How to Effectively Copy Spooge?"

"Let's Sell a Book Of Craig's Free Advice!"

I mean, no wonder the guy is frustrated. Leave him alone. Let him paint and continue to inspire us. Can you blame him for moving to Hawaii? :P

[mythwarden]

I think idea of it was great, Frank. Don't worry about it. I don't think anyone was offended.

The problem is -- Our 2 cents are rarely worth 2 dollars.

None of what we say should be written as law. Especially in a friendly environment where our words aren't watched too closely and we are all still learning ourselves.

I liked what you wrote...but I wouldn't want to be quoted on 99% of the advice I give here either. Let someone who's looking for that kind of attention, have it.

Otherwise let the words come and go, take what you will of it, and leave the recorders behind, since what we write now, may not be what we would write a year from now.

-myth

[-HoodZ-]

Hawaii's nice...goin there next month and i cant wait

[Ian Jones]

Stop! Stop! before the posts get even more progressively larger!

You'll quote each other to death!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

[Lunatique]

pbechard-- I understand your point, but what you are talking about is a reality that's caused by the selfish and the dark side of human nature. What we are trying to preserve is the good side of human nature. Yes, people imitate others, and yes some blatantly rip off others(Mike Hoffman, anyone?), but does that mean it's a GOOD thing? Just because bad things happen in life does not mean we shouldn't try to prevent more of it from happening. If we were to not govern ourselves, and to discourage others from the negative aspects of human nature, this world would just go straight to a chaotic mess.

Let me ask you this:

Would you like to have another dozens of bands that sound exactly like Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Limp Bizkit, or Linkin Park in the music industry, or would you rather have new bands with innovative, unique sounds?

If you say that you don't mind all the rip-off bands that copy other well-known bands, then we have nothing left to discuss anymore.

[Leroy]

I am a psychologist (almost ) and i can tell you that imitation is indeed a important way of learning, and people do learn more by imitation than is generally assumed.
I myself have learned from copying comicbook artists on things i couldn't do, and moved on from there.
Main difference is that in this fashion i didn't copy one style, but created my own using many others as a basis.

I understand your point about copying being the way of the market. and you are right on this, you can see it everywhere. in electronics, food,holly wood, where ever. Also in art.
True. It seems like a lot of people attack you because they think you indorse copying. I don't read that in your posts, i think you are entitled to the opinion that copying artists (biter) are allowed to do what they do, and they are. I myself would rather see those people disappear, but they never will.

I understand craig's decision. i would've done the same myself.

also, this is not the first time i've seen this discussion develop, and people do tend to get extremely protective. which is not strange since everyone has great respect for craig, and that too is understandable. It is a petty however that the subject gets this much attention and seems to divide this forum into two parties.
or (and as a noob a have had this experience) it makes this board seem very unforgiving and dogmatic.
This is all very unfortunate, because good as he may be, at the end of the day craig is also a human being and just another artist. And i don't care more about the flourishing of his business than for that of any other artist. THat is his business, and his responsibility.

Don't get me wrong, i do feel bad that a man's generocity gets abused, but that is the consequence of a choice he made. And so as a result he made another choice. to be less generous, and that is always a pity

[Gort]

pbechard-- just clarify - the car metaphor thing: I am saying that you can have as many fancy toys as the next guy but how they're used and by whom determines the final outcome.

Anybody need any more popcorn?

[Goldabar]

Tom Carter: yes please, pass the box over here

[Sedone]

I guess Craig's the patron saint of this board whether he intended to be or not. Loki said it way back at the beginning of the thread, if you want to learn then just look at the pieces Craig posts on here. There's a lot info in those quick sketches. You don't need a step by step tutorial. I think he's being very generous by posting his hits-and-misses on a public forum.

Erg! This post was in response to the other "Craig thread" There's too many of them!

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Sedone ]

[eyewoo]

quote

Quote:

Would you like to have another dozens of bands that sound exactly like Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Limp Bizkit, or Linkin Park in the music industry,...

no... not unless I was looking to find cheap entertainment for a birthday party...

quote

Quote:

... or would you rather have new bands with innovative, unique sounds?

of course. But Luna, how do you think they got there. I'd bet there was a lot of imitation going on before unique voices were found. You use the past and what has been done to slingshot yourself into the future. No one got to the moon without appreciateing and understanding what Wilbur and Orville Wright did... Same thing int he art world...

Anyone have a KitKat... I hate popcorn...

[pixelsoldier]

[pbechard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lunatique:
pbechard-- I understand your point, but what you are talking about is a reality that's caused by the selfish and the dark side of human nature. What we are trying to preserve is the good side of human nature. Yes, people imitate others, and yes some blatantly rip off others(Mike Hoffman, anyone?), but does that mean it's a GOOD thing? Just because bad things happen in life does not mean we shouldn't try to prevent more of it from happening. If we were to not govern ourselves, and to discourage others from the negative aspects of human nature, this world would just go straight to a chaotic mess.

Let me ask you this:

Would you like to have another dozens of bands that sound exactly like Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Limp Bizkit, or Linkin Park in the music industry, or would you rather have new bands with innovative, unique sounds?

If you say that you don't mind all the rip-off bands that copy other well-known bands, then we have nothing left to discuss anymore.

---

Lunatique: i agree that people who just rip craig off are bad, but i dont agree that people who use craig's style inorder to create thier own work are bad. as for the musical reference. I guess you dont have much experiance with music, when i was a child and was learning guitar, i must have learned how to play 50-100 songs written by other people, before i even begun to think about trying my own stuff. and if i think even futher back to piano lessons, i dont believe that there was ever a point when i created my own work. it was all learning old compositions in order to help me learn how to play. people use imitation as stepping stones in the learning process, as for younger people i believe this absolutly essential for them, you cant expect a 12 year old to create his own style, and if he did, i believe it would be a very bad thing if he started doing it exclusivly.

as for not minding rip off bands next to well known bands? of couse i dont. and neither do you. if you give me a list of all the bands you currently like. i bet i can point out 50%+ were rip off bands when they started, very few bands start thier own musical style off the bat. and just because a band is imitating a well known band, who is to say they cant create better music? with a lot of the techno i listen to, some of the newest DJs in the older styles have the best songs.

[Lunatique]

pbechard- FYI, I was a professional songwriter/arranger in the 90's. I wrote songs for some of the biggest names in the Asian music industry.

As far as some of my favorite music goes, they are usually highly original and unique bands/composers, and were important pioneers of entire movements and styles. I doubt you can point out that 50% of them were rip-off bands.

Ryuichi Sakamato
New Order
Psy S
Lamb
Cranes
The Smiths
Pig
Curve
The Sundays

Go ahead, give it your best shot.

I'm not saying you shouldn't imitate to learn. Everyone does that in the beginning. What I'm saying is DON'T DO IT AS A PROFESSIONAL. It's not cool. It's as simple as that.

There are things that artists treasure and respect, and they're called artistic PRIDE and artistic INTEGRITY. People are free to do whatever they want, it's just a matter of whether they do it with scruples or not.

Bottom line: imitation for learning and growing is a common practice, and I have NO problem with it, but imitating for the sake of stealing someone's profesional business and to claim another's unique style as your own IS NOT COOL, PERIOD. People do it everyday, but that does not make it an ethical practice.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[pbechard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lunatique:
pbechard- FYI, I was a professional songwriter/arranger in the 90's. I wrote songs for some of the biggest names in the Asian music industry.

As far as some of my favorite music goes, they are usually highly original and unique bands/composers, and were important pioneers of entire movements and styles. I doubt you can point out that 50% of them were rip-off bands.

Ryuichi Sakamato
New Order
Psy S
Lamb
Cranes
The Smiths
Pig
Curve
The Sundays

Go ahead, give it your best shot.

I'm not saying you shouldn't imitate to learn. Everyone does that in the beginning. What I'm saying is DON'T DO IT AS A PROFESSIONAL. It's not cool. It's as simple as that.

There are things that artists treasure and respect, and they're called artistic PRIDE and artistic INTEGRITY. People are free to do whatever they want, it's just a matter of whether they do it with scruples or not.

Bottom line: imitation for learning and growing is a common practice, and I have NO problem with it, but imitating for the sake of stealing someone's profesional business and to claim another's unique style as your own IS NOT COOL, PERIOD. People do it everyday, but that does not make it an ethical practice.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

---

Lunatique: who said anything about someone using craig's style and calling it thier own? when was the last time you saw someone painting in. umm. lets say cubism. and then they said they invented the style? i should hope never. as for people stealing someones business? if you use craig's style, and you can make better work than craig. you deserve his business. isint it in the client's best interest to get the best possible work?
as for your music.. gee. you sure listen to some obscure bands when it comes to this stereotypical white north american teenager. so here is my best shot. if i had listened to the bands a bit more i would be able to do this better.

Ryuichi Sakamato: uhh.. have you ever listened to central american disco/pop? if you think Ryuichi came up with that style, think again. but that only applies to some of his work. more of his songs remind me of miles davis. and i dont think it is technically possible for miles to have used Sakamato's style. and the stuff he did when he was back in YMO.. common.

Lamb: do you think they actually came up with the idea of jungle/trip-hop ? if i remember correctly Massive Attack and Sneaker pimps have been doing it for longer. And i think jungle originated from Pure. its not thier own style. but i havint really listened to that style in a long time. i usually just listen to new german trance, house or happy hardcore now.

i could go on about every single one of those bands. none of them have pioneered a specific musical style on thier own. they have all had help along the way. and how would you expect anyone to develop an evolved form of craig's style if they always get thier head bitten off whenever they ask about the technique? it is up to the people who know it to decided if they will help or not. as i said before, either help the person asking or leave them alone. telling them not to use craig's style would be like telling me not to create trance like music, that i should go and invent a style on my own. i would create in that style because i like it, because i can best express myself in it.

and i guess i have to say this for a tenth time because people still are posting arguements using it. i DO NOT support people who just copy craig's stuff. i support people who want to learn craigs technique in order to further thier skill in the digital medium. and mabey get as proficient with the medium as he is.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: pbechard ]

[pixelsoldier]

It obviously doesn't matter what anyone says. Pbechard is obviously Jesus come to save Sijun from the wrongs of the world.

There is obviously no "winning". If you said the sky was blue, he'd argue. It's like dealing with a child.

[pbechard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pixelsoldier:
It obviously doesn't matter what anyone says. Pbechard is obviously Jesus come to save Sijun from the wrongs of the world.

---

god. how can i possibly argue with sound logic such as that. its nice to see that philosophical conversations on this discussion forum can still be brought down to insults. thanks pixelsoldier. im sure we are all the wiser now that we have heard your brilliant observations. very good. now go sit in the corner.

the only reason why im posting is because i like having intersting conversations with people who have such a

quote:

---

Originally posted by pixelsoldier:
if English was a language you could adequately comprehend

---

better comprehension of the english language than i do. i swear to god, i have a certificate on my wall that says "Notice of disibility in the communications area: pbechard, he dont speak english good."

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: pbechard ]

[roundeye]

did craig invented some sort of art movement comparable to cubism or impressionism? and that people who rip his style are working within this 'movement' to further it??? you can be original while working in the confines of a genre such as impressionism. craig is not a genre.

as for the music, your saying they didnt invent the genre, or the fusion. thats fine, they can still have thier unique original styles.

you can say "i create music in the drum and base style" its really gay, on the other hand to say: "i create original music in the goldie style"

get it???

[pbechard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by roundeye:
did craig invented some sort of art movement comparable to cubism or impressionism? and that people who rip his style are working within this 'movement' to further it??? you can be original while working in the confines of a genre such as impressionism. craig is not a genre.

as for the music, your saying they didnt invent the genre, or the fusion. thats fine, they can still have thier unique original styles.

you can say "i create music in the drum and base style" its really gay, on the other hand to say: "i create original music in the goldie style"

get it???

---

roundeye: i would go as far as saying spooge is his own genre. i can reconize a spooge painting just on the style it is painted in, without looking at the name. also are you saying that people who learn the techniques behind spooge style will be incapable of having a unique style?

as for your other comment.. i dont really get it...

roundeye: i was completely wrong about you. your signature is neither insulting to me or petty. i was completely wrong. would you please find it in your endless compassion and vast intelligence to forgive me?

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: pbechard ]

[roundeye]

quote

Quote:

i dont really get it...

I KNOW.

[Gort]

Hmmm...although I am not a moderator here, I would like to suggest that serious indifferences which in turn lead to disparaging reactions be left to email. It is my opinion that this thread is starting to get terribly nasty.

Gentlemen, please sheath your swords.

[Lunatique]

pbechard- Ok, it's pretty obvious that you are strong in your opinion, as I am in mine. I don't see the possiblity for a real discussion, other than you needing to get the last word in.

And FYI, Sakamoto is revered worldwide for his ability to composed a wide range of music, from reggae, techno, industrial, classical, jazz, rock, pop, ethnic, to avant garde. His ability to fuse and cross reference various ethnic styles from around the world and combining them with contemporary music styles is absolutely unique. Many have taken his cue and followed up with their own interpretation of that formula, but Sakamoto was a major pioneer in that movement. Central American disco/pop? I have NO idea where you get that from. And as far as YMO goes, they were one of the first bands in the world to embrace the electronic movement, along with other pioneers like Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream..etc.

And about Lamb-- Jungle/Drum n' Bass is NOT what makes them truely unique. It's JAZZ, my friend. In fact, jazz is such an important element in their music, they have a full jazz ensemble that plays in their live shows.

Look, it's obvious you know nothing about these bands. Going on the internet and grabbing a few sound clips and reading a few reviews does not make you an expert. especially when it comes to someone like Sakamoto, who's been around the music scene since the early 70's, and have composed and pioneered more music styles than you can possibly fathom.

Why do you feel the need to act like as if you know everything and have the ability to counter every argument made by anyone? Is it some kind of a teenger thing? I don't remember being like that when I was a teenager.

The smartest/wisest person is someone who knows and admits that he/she doesn't have all the answers, and is never always right.

[Blind]

I'm breaking my own personal policy by replying to one of these threads, but I'd like to make a suggestion:

Go paint something!! PLEASE!!

I'd much rather see the latest work from any of you than to see you put any more effort into a thread like this.

Enough said.

[LoTekK]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blind:

Go paint something!! PLEASE!!

I'd much rather see the latest work from any of you than to see you put any more effort into a thread like this.

Enough said.

---

well said, blind... c'mon, guys:
luna, let's see somemore chicks... and finish that Angel Wars painting!!! and the Moonlight Lovers one!!!
let's end this madness calmly... "can't we all just... get along?"