[pbechard]

Hello, I'm sure this question has been asked many times before, but here it goes again. Im wondering if anybody has the location of a tutorial dealing with the lighting/shading style that craig mullins pioneered on this board. I'm not planning on being a professional artist or anything but I would really like to understand his approach.
Thanks for any help.
-paul

[chickensoup]

The only thing I can say is that, from looking at Craig's stuff, it isn't so much that it is a style that he developed from photoshop or that there's really any secrets to his paintings. But instead, it's more that his skills in gouache painting background have manifested itself in photoshop. If you look at Syd Meade paintings, most of which are done in gouache, there are a lot of striking similarities between them and Craig's style in photoshop.

The thing about gouache is that it forces you to paint in both value and color, and the medium itself really doesn't lend itself well to blending. As opposed to oil painting (or photoshop especially), where you can blend edges. In gouache, you're forced to paint the intermediate colors and transitions. You're basically painting faceted shapes, and to add more detail, or more roundness to form, you paint more facets. The first color you put down in gouache basically has to be the right color, and the right value. You can try painting over it, but you also risk re-constituting the paint underneath because it's waterbase (although, you technically can do it if you dry-brush over it). Because of those limitations, a lot of people learn how to paint really well, really fast in a relatively short amount of time.

these are just some observations I've made.
-soup

[pbechard]

Wow very cool. do you know of any other good sites like that one?

[Returner]

Interesting explanation of spooge's gouache history chickensoup.
But what are the positive aspects of gouache if it doesn't blend? Is the positive aspect the fact that it doens't blend? or is it something else? It just seems strange to me. I've never dealt with any natural medium except water color thereof my obvious lack of insight here

[jr]

aside from the magic beans, i find that craig's style reminds me alot of sargents water colors. i'm talking about spoooooogie's quick sketches.

[Loki]

That was really a cool explanation, yes.

And from what I can see, Craig has a natural talent for value - it's amazing. Paired with his tremendous experience and eye it's what makes his images that awesome.

Additionally, Craig seems to be always curious and exploring, sharpening his skills not only manually but also mentally ... what an artist!

[Oblagon]

gouache IS easy to blend. it must dry first.

[chickensoup]

Returner: It's not that gouache doesn't blend. It's that it doesn't blend as well as mediums like Oils or Acrylic (with "flow-aid" or "slow-dri" mediums). Gouache as a learning medium is useful because of that "handi-cap"; because it's easier to have muddier looking paintings when trying to blend with gouache, than it is to have it look good. For example, in Wayne Thiebaud paintings, he tends to like to use a warmer color as a transition from lightside to darkside of a form. As well as John Singer Sargeant (look at the noses of a lot Sargeant portaits paintings). This is simply an effect that can only be achieved by literally painting in the warmer intermediate color. You cannot get this effect by blending the light side of the form with the darkside of the form. A lot beginning students, painting in something like acrylic, or even oil, often make the mistake of doing that. Which is fine, because the painting will read well in terms of value, but they will sometimes wonder why their colors are muddy looking.

Another positive aspect of gouache, besides the fact that it dries fast, is the purity of the pigment. Not even in oil, and especially acrylic, can you find a medium that allows you to basically paint with pure pigment, with as little amount of medium. Watercolor is like that as well (especially when you use dyes), however, it's little more expensive to not dilute it with water than it is with gouache. So in many cases, you're actually learning how to mute down a pure color, as opposed to beginning with a kind of muted color. Although, arguably, some may say that it isn't important to use pure unmuted colors, especially for realistic painting, since it is so rare that anyone would ever actually see a pure color (since everything in the real world is slightly muted down). Besides the fact that it dries really fast, this is the reason why Disney, and even a lot of Japanese Animation (especially before the digital era), prefered to paint a lot of their backgrounds in gouache.

For the longest time, I used to use a lot really expensive pure cadmuium Series 1 oils because of the purity of pigment to medium, and not using any hues (like cad yellow hue). It was only later when I took a quickstudies (speed) painting class that my teacher made me realize how rare anyone actually saw a pure color in the real world. I still use pure colors now, but only for compositional purposes, and more frugally than before (and it's easier on the wallet) to mix up mutes.

Sorry, if I got a little longwinded. And yeah, I know, I'm a painting nerd.

-soup

[Lunatique]

Another reason why gouche is a good training medium is that you have to learn to predict your values, and work out how the values interact with each other in the painting--all this because gouche dries in a lighter shade than when it's wet. That kind of mental acrobatics in predicting how your current layer of paint will interact with what's on the canvas makes your eyes/brain sharper.

chickensoup- We welcome painting nerds. We've got a few here.

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[LoTekK]

actually, if you would take a quick look over at the 6th page of the gasmask thread, you'll notice that ANJ77 has discovered quite a gem of a filter that will create spooge pictures FOR you! quite amazing, though he's a bit of a meanie and doesn't seem to want to share it with the rest of us... ah well, such is life... we'll have to do it the hard way...

[pbechard]

Thanks chikensoup. That definnaly gives me some insights into it. I was also really wondering about the techinical side of the approach (im a cs geek). Like the best programs to use. brushs. ideas on coloring. how you shapes are sketched in and how layering is used. apart from my own interest in painting, iv had a few ideas of expanding a style like that to a 3d renderer (it seems to lend itself nicely).

[Mr Crowley]

i think that both in oil and gouache we should use similar technique.
We have to make decision about the color,value and hue,before puting the stroke
in correct place. The painting should look like a mosaic. The better artist the better are all those transitions and colors.
I look at sargent's paintings and see the same. In oils(especially) every stroke is important.
I gouche You can achieve a sketchy look,bacause the brush keeps the paint a lot better than in oils. You can draw a few dozen of strokes at a time.
In oils it's impossible. You put a few strokes and your brush is out of paint.


p.s.sorry for my poor english

[chickensoup]

Check out this page then: http://www.simplestroke.com/workshop.html

it's kind of interesting because his approach, using a hard 70% opacity brush is similar to that of oil painting. Similar in that you have an opaque medium that is slightly transparent because of adding mediums like linseed oil to the pigment.

-soup

[Returner]

Thanks chickensoup, that cleared out some of my questions regarding gouache/oils.
Luna: that seams horrible...not really knowing how the final painting will be

[spooge demon]

OMG they're onto me...

gotta ask why, though...

Gouache will dry towards a middle value, the darks are darker when wet and the lights are lighter. The farther from the middle you go the more pronounced it is.

Also gouache dries quickly, a plus in commercial work, and it is very flat, so it reproduces very well.

You can blend gouache wet into wet, and planning where you want your softest edges and doing them this way is the best way to go. That is another reason why it is good training- you have to think and plan.

you can paint over gouache without lower layers coming through (as long as the color is not "fugitive" in which case it will always come through). The trick is to mix up plenty of paint, use a good sable brush nicely loaded, lay down the stroke, and leave it alone. Blending will make a muddy mess. So it does enforce good habits early on. If you want to soften and edge just a little, you can after everything is dry, and it helps to paint thickly so there is enough pigment to pull around. Syd Mead paints very thickly. His early work used the wet into wet preplanned blending technique, as do his sketches, but in his finished work and more recent stuff he uses an airbrush quite a bit. I have to say I like the wet into wet better. He would do the drugged out 60 backgrounds with some kind of solvent-water resist, then paint over it with gouache.

But in the later part of my painted illustration career I used acrylic and cel-vinyl, as I believe Greg Pro does. It is similar to gouache, but does not come back up when painted over. So it allows more abuse and changes. You can block in a painting pretty thinly to start, and get thicker as you go.

Alright ChickenSoup, how you know all this stuff? What you have said is all very accurate in my book. What is your background?

[Ian Jones]

I'm coming...

[Ian Jones]

I know where you live...

[Ian Jones]

To get you!

[Ian Jones]

Spooge has a stalker.

btw, thanks for the insight. I have used gouache and it certainly does make you think ahead. I didn't realize that was such a beneficial process.

[mza]

Gouache is a great medium.I've been trying out Acryla-Gouache a brand by Holbien. Has the nice matte finish of gouache, but is more durable like acrylics. The only thing is it doesn't lift(blend) again once dry.

Chickensoup - I noticed your from SF, do I know you?

[chickensoup]

Spooge: I'm just a nerdy illustration/animation student in SF who likes to paint. And I'm also trying to get away from depending on reference for my pictures by acquiring as much knowledge as possible from life. I started painting in photoshop mostly because I needed a digital portfolio. I loved your paintings because you don't use stuff like painter to hide the fact that it's photoshop, but instead it's based purely on what a good painting is and whether or not it communicates (that and they're just friggin awesome; people don't look at it and say, "oh wow, it looks just like oils," but instead say, "oh wow, that's awesome picture").

mmza: Crap! I've been found out! I'm not sure if anyone actually remembers me. You're with the workshopcrew, are you Molly? I'm a friend of Jahkeeli and Jony (I'm the quiet kid with the bad posture I'm still trying to work on). I went to a couple of your Saturday workshops but I've been really quiet mostly because I don't really know anyone there. But I like the Sat. one as opposed to the Fri. ones where I get a little intimidated by all the super-psycho-I'm-going-to-cut-your-thing-off-if-you're-better-than-me drawing kids (it's like going to the gym when you don't work out a lot and being surrounded by the football team lifting weights). I've also been just a little hesitant about bringing my notebook with me because I've been accused of "nerding-out," or getting reactions like "Oh look, it's finally happening, we're in the future," or crap like "That must be easier than real paint." But I have to admit, I got the idea after seeing Mark bring his Titanium to a couple workshops, so I decided, "What the hell? I'm already wierd enough as it is, so it shouldn't be any surprise if I bring my laptop with me."

I'll stop rambling now.

-soup

[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: chickensoup ]

[pbechard]

chicken: Are you sure craig only uses photoshop? iv been looking over some of his images posted and have noticed a lot have brush strokes that cant be done in photoshop save zooming in and faking it (unless photoshop supports directional brushes now??) like in this craig mullins image (specifically around the door)
http://home1.gte.net/craigm/palace.JPG
can photoshop create brush strokes like that or was that done in painter?

another question: which do you guys find better. Prainter 7 (is this the same company who made Painter 6?) or Photoshop 7. also im in the market for great tutorials if you know of any (ie. any tutorials that gave you a huge insight into successful painting in photoshop)
thanks for your time.
-paul

[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: pbechard ]

[Lunatique]

chickensoup- ahhhh, a workshop crew kid. That explains it. Those guys sure are a bunch of art nerds. (I'm joking! I've wanted to attend ever since I worked with Brandon and Soosa at 3DO, but I'm a lazy bastard that can't get up early enough in the day time...). I got to meet some of the workshop kids during the Sargent Exhibition in Seattle last year, and they were very nice.

mza= Molly?? OMG. Hi Molly! This is Rob!

[chickensoup]

pbechard: Okay, this is just about to show you how nerdy I am. That picture you linked to was actually one of the few paintings that Craig was actually trying out Painter. (I can't believe I know that, I am totally fired for even remembering something like that . . . I think he submitted it to the speed painting forum actually and said that he still didn't like painter even after doing that painting to give painter a chance).

Yes, the company that made Painter 7 is the same one that made 6. What happened was that Corel basically took over a lot of metacreations products. The directional brush thing would be cool, but it doesn't really matter because I only have a graphire USB wacom pad, someday, I'll hopefully make enough money to get a Intuous 4x5 instead.

Lunatique: No, I'm not cool enough to be a workshop crew kid.

[mza]

Oh NO they blew my cover!hehe...people always assume I'm a male artist when I post on here, which was fun. Oh well.

Soup:
hmmmm, I still don't know if I know you, but say Hi to Jahkeeli for me! It's sad to me about the academy workshops...the next gen of students seem a little less friendly and more competitive?
I think it's cool to try figure painting with the laptop, if people look at you funny it's because they can't afford one! Bad news, I won't be running the workshops anymore...but, keep up the paintn'

Luna(aka ROb) : Hi! Yeah, I remember meeting you in Seattle. I knew who you were.
You sure post a lot.

[jr]

gee, everyones connected somehow. i dont' know molly, but i know someone that knows her. 3 degrees of molly .

[Impaler]

fuel_99 is right.

Here's the thread you're talking about, pbechard:

Cubes and stuff

I'm assuming about half or so of the images are dead, but Mullins' and ..er.. Fred's learnin's are still there.

Jr:That whole connectivity theory is being seriously challenged, simply because the rich and famous have all the social capital. You can probably link yourself to Kevin Bacon or some celebrity in six steps, but if you tried to link yourself to me, I'm thinking it wouldn't work. There's actually a website (I forget the URL) that is trying that whole social connectivity deal; you're given a target out of a user database, and you have to try and connect yourself to them through people. It's not working well, so far.

[jr]

the six degrees of seperation theory was disproved last year. it was popular in the 60's because of that i love my neighbor stuff.
i wasn't being serious about that..... i was just being a wise-ass. but i am connected to molly through 3 steps.

[Impaler]

Heh. Yeah, I know you weren't being serious. I was just mentioning it for the interest factor. Could make a good random musings topic or something.

[fuel_99]

it must be so freaky to read threads where everyone is refering to you in the third person..