[razzak]

i have to say ive read the whole of the goldabar thread, and it seriously got me thinking. i still dont know what i want to do, but im most likely going to be doing computer science at uni, and after that take a course in illustration. i am taking comp sci because i know that it can provide me with a secure job, but i want to do something artistic (i loved drawing since i was little), concept stuff preferably (concept character design for example). i need to know what jobs out there i can take, what kinds of sallaries i can expect, good sides, bad sides. also what unies or colleges are best and are recognised (have da respect!) if i want to take illustration. im sure quite a few people here are stuck in the same boat and would like to know this kinda stuff too. ive looked all over the net but there isnt much there. thanks

[Goldabar]

/Me is gonna watch this thread very, very closely

Agreed, its so strange that stuff like salaries are never, ever discussed. I dunno how many people I've asked about how they go with salary type stuff (mates that I know that do LD and game design work for a living) and they simply ignore/avoid the question...which scares me heh, maybe it's not that great

Anyways I'm as much in the dark as you Razzak. Let the posting commence

[henrik]

I think uni is a good alternative, I miss that part of my life, but I can't say that my life has been wasted so far. Do what your heart tells you to do, it's always accurate

EDIT: Removed slightly off topic crap.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: henrik ]

[Lunatique]

On an average, an entry level position in games will get you from $30,000 to $40,000 a year. (texture artist, level design, modeling..etc)

For veterans, it could be as hight as $50,000 to $80,000.

Typically, animators get paid the most because good animators are hard to find in games(the really good ones move on to Hollywood). I know lead animators making around $85,000. Art directors are in this range too, but there are times when AD make LESS than the artists that work under him/her because those lower ranked artists have more in-demand skills.

Hope this helps.

[razzak]

holy shit!!!!!!! what qualifications are we talking here?

[Lunatique]

Errr. It's not as much as you think.

1)In that tax bracket, 30% of your income goes to taxes.

2)Those salaries are from companies in major cities, where the cost is high. An one-bedroom apartment will cost you $1200 a month easily. Of course, there's the crappier options if you don't mind bad neighborhoods.

As far as qualifications go, entry level means one or more of the following:

1)you can do nice textures, and probably knows how to apply them in a 3D application.

2)you can build some average lookin' models(levels, props, characters)with a 3D app.

3)You've built levels for fun for one of the popular games(quake, UT..etc), and they look pretty professional.

For veterans(meaning you've shipped at least a handful of games, and have been in the biz for a few years):

1)You REALLY know your 3D shit. You can model high and low poly within limitations on poly count, you work pretty fast, and your models animate without getting FULBARed.

2)You can animate really well.

3)You do kickass concept art.

4)You build awesome levels with great lighting, and make beautiful textures.

5)You are very familiar with the production pipeline, and feel at home during any part of the production cycle. You are cool when crunch time hits, and you've pulled more than your share of all-nighters.

For Art Directors:

1)You are a veteran.

2)You are a better artist than most veterans.

3)You really know how to kiss ass(art ability or managerial ability optional).

4)You really know how to bullshit(same).

5)You are technically very knowlegable, have a good eye for style, atmosphere, visual communication techniques..etc but probably can't draw very well.

6)You are truely an art God, and your company is lucky to have you lead their artistic vision.

7)You are a manager(with or without art abilities).

Or of all the positions, Art Director is the most unpredictable. I've seen really good ones, and really bad ones.

The best ones are kickass artists that really know how to communicate with fellow artists, find the strengths of each and keep them challenged and interested. They also know how to convey ideas and needs to the programmers, designers, and management. They know how to plan out the production schedule so the team doesn't hit crunch unnecessarily, and they respect and care about the team.

The bad ones are just incompetent both managerially and artistically. Some are even big assholes. The worst are bad artists with huge egos that go and redo art themselves and belittle others. *shiver* Thank God I've only heard about those from collegues at other companies.

The best Art directors I've worked with are probably Chris Grun on Prince of Persia 3D, and Vince Castillo on Pastrana Vs. McGrath Freestyle Motorcross. Both are really nice guys and great artists too. Funny though, neither WANTED to be AD. They just wanted to do art, but fell into the position because no one else qualified. Seems guys like that make the best AD. Weird.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[mythwarden]

Lunatique is correct.

Though if you work on leading franchises and if your ontop of the field you can make anywhere up to 110,000. You have to be damn good though.

You'll have full benefits at most companies:

401k (Only a select few offer this.)
Stock Options
Royalties (Rarely these days.)
Vision Plan
Dental Plan
Health Plan

...The list goes on. It's a very good, but time consumed living. I wouldn't suggest it for those with families unless you've talked with people within and they say that their company is good about time allocation.

-myth

[sunraven0]

I like this thread
Ok, here are my qualifications:
1)I can do nice textures, and know how to apply them in a 3D application. (3d max)

2)I can build some average lookin' models(levels, props, characters)with a 3D app. I dont make wonderful characters though, dont have a whole lot of experience making them.

3)I've built levels for fun for one of the popular games(quake & torque engines), and they look pretty professional. I've also helped build the whole campus of our uni in virtual reality class & have worked on other architectural projects.

4) Experienced in Autocad.

5) Graduate from a university with a B.S. in Software Engineering Technology- Design Computing in a month & a half.

6) Have worked 2 internships & have photoshop & team work experience.

I've been looking for a job for a month. I am willing to relocate anywhere in the U.S. I am not really sure what work of mine I should put on my website for people to see though. Besides some screenshots, should I put the game levels that I have worked on on my website for people to download?
I've done a lot of textures for different projects, how many do I put on my website?
Is it this hard for everyone thats entry level to find somewhere to start?

Still tryin....sorry for LOTS of questions.

[mythwarden]

Here's the reply I gave in another thread a few days ago...


------------------------------
Basic Guideline for Gaming Industry Submission
Website/Demo Reel:

5-10 Life Drawings

4-6 plus Colored Paintings

At least 15-20 Environmental Texture Maps of at least 512*512 resolution.

3 or more character models

Texture Maps for each, 512 resolution plus.

At least one set of animations for a character:

Non-Animator- Run Cycles, Simple Defense, Simple Attacks, Jumping, etc.

Animator- Don't do simple cycles rather do a wide range of complex animations showing that you have a strong grasp on physics.

----------------------------------------

Here's the critical part.

No Tutorial Based Artwork - That means don't do a tutorial in a book/website and use that as your submission.

School Submissions- You have 10% chance that your schoolwork will get you in. You have a 30% chance that something creative you had done in your own time will get you in. Most the work schools have you do for demo's is repeated and repeated and repeated in each demo we see. You need to break away from the rest and stand out. Show persistency and dedication in your own time with your own private work. Learn from the people who are in the position you want to be in. (A degree has little impact in this industry. However, it’s still a good idea to get one.)

Creativity- Make sure your work stands out and is interesting to other people. (I was about to say this was most critical...but "Teamwork" definitely comes first.)

Constructive Criticism- You'll need to dish it out so learn to take it in.

Quality- Only submit your best work. Remember that, you’re only as good as your worst piece. Be sure the quality of your work matches the 5 star games you see out there.

Genre- Make sure you don’t push one genre alone.

Style- Cartoon, Realism, etc

Timing- Place your eye-popping stuff in the beginning and in the end. Make sure you show your contact information at the end too.


Exceptions:

"I don't have 3D Software" "I don't have the money"

Get yourself a game like "Unreal" Unreal comes with an editor that is widely used across the board by gaming companies. Learn the editor and do some cool levels along with some nice textures for it.
Place some of the levels up on a site for people to download and try to get into a Tester or Intro Level Design position from there. Once your a Tester/Designer you can learn some of the tools and try moving up into the position you want to be in from there.

Hope this helps. Good luck! ;-)

-myth

[Gort]

Overall do take into consideration "costof living adjustments". I don't know where they are right off, but there are some online calculators.

A $40k entry job isn't going to go far in southern California - even $60k is cutting it close. It's all contigent on lifestyle -what you like and are willing to sacrifice to get to where you want to be, so pray you don't have any expensive habits.

I was once offered a job in Manhatten for $60k. I thought that was cool until I did a cost of living assessment. It turned out to equal about $44k here in Atlanta - less that I was making at the time.

[sunraven0]

thanks myth, i checked out your website. great work. congrats on the little one

[sunraven0]

At the moment I am in a part of the country where there are no gaming companies, so I've been doing some architectural/promotional stuff. There are not many options & not much $ in the South though.
I will have a degree in May & I can stay here & do other boring things (boring to me anyway), but its not what I want. I want to be a texture artist...and thats not really an applicable profession in Mississippi. But, I agree, I am glad that I will always have my degree to fall back on...even if it means being in a cubicle or networking.

[razzak]

uhu, i see, all the stuff about the demo reels was cool, i didnt know that. also the whole industry seems hard on the cash. some really cool stuff there, keep it coming ^__^

[mythwarden]

Sunraver0,

Thank you!

There's one more thing I wanted to add to this post before I move on.

The gaming industry has to be one of the most unstable environments out there. You may be doing great one moment, then next thing you know your entire team could be wiped out without a moments notice.

I've seen whole companies go down that made amazing games along with companies that wiped out half their staff within a matter of days.

In my own experience, I've found most Execs have little honor when it comes to this type of thing.

A lot of the Japanese run companies here in America have random portfolio checks by the Execs from Japan. I've had friends who have seen them open up portfolios, scan them for a moment, then say "Let em' go" Regardless of how much the artist had contributed.

This had blown me away because often times it's those people that had contributed the most work. They had to work that much harder to be there.

Job security would definitely be part of the bad. If your in a part of the States where there aren’t to many game companies, then your up creek without a paddle, with bills to pay that match your once had Salary.

*This is one reason I said a degree was important. You need it for just about anything else to fall back on.*

Just a heads up.


-myth

[razzak]

hmm, interesting there. do you people mean that if i know how to use my 3d software and can do some cool stuff i can get that ammount of money. now what if ive got a BA in illustration lets say, or some other degree, will that change the ammount i could be earning? and if yes, by how much

[sunraven0]

...and exactly how great of an artist (drawing) do you have to be to make that kind of money. I doubt my traditional skills because I have had no traditional training.

[razzak]

thats a good point actually i never thought about that. do you actually need to be mega excellent on traditional too? of course youll need your sketching skills etc, but do you actually need to be good at things like oil painting? (please not, please not, please not, please not, doh!)

[sunraven0]

bump

[Lunatique]

Actually, game artist with excellent traditional skills is a rare thing. Most companies have at least one of them per team though. Some companies have the entire team like that(Saffire). Depends on the art director. Some AD ONLY hires artists who are good painters. Some dont' care as long as your 3D stuff is tight.

[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[razzak]

also, do you need any sort of programming knowledge, or will the "other dudes" be doing the coding?

[sunraven0]

I am not very experienced, but the projects that I'm working on have programmers & I dont have to worry about that thank God.

[Lunatique]

Artists are NEVER asked to program.

[sunraven0]

hehehe, thats a good thing, because I really don't like programming!

[MoleculeMan]

heres a question: what if you have experience in programming AND art? Are there any opportunities(sp?) out there for people like that (ie prolly me! heh)

jake

[Fabrys]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MoleculeMan:
heres a question: what if you have experience in programming AND art? Are there any opportunities(sp?) out there for people like that (ie prolly me! heh)

jake

---

I know a video game company, in Germany.
It's a small team working on one single project.
A character designer (2D&3D) would be able to verify and to sort the sprites.
The programmer would be able to help de level designer.
I think that in small teams, the flexibility is really exploited.

[sunraven0]

I'm sure it doesn't hurt to know how to program. ...every now & then I have to do a little bit, but never anything major. But, I don't like programming at all, and I let that be known on a daily basis I am sure there are companies who would be happy to have an artist that can program & wants to do it.

[Lunatique]

MoleculeMan-- very rarely does it happen. A company will hire you either as a programmer or artist. There are people working in the industry who can do both, but they are almost always better at one than the other, and that's what they do at work. I've seen a few exceptions of people doing some stuff outside of their department(for example, a guy hired as artist ended up as an IT guy, then started doing modeling on a project on top of his IT duties).

You need to concentrate on one and make sure you are really good at it. Spreading yourself too thin is not a good idea unless you are extremely talented, motivated, and hard-working.

[MadSamoan]

Artist salaries can really, really vary. Entry level nowadays is in the 30K range. It may be lower if they're going to be investing alot of time training before they get a return of investment. On the high end, artists do get into over the 100K range. At this point, they're top dogs in the company and are usually either directing teams of artists, or are the top animators, or are exceptional jack-of-all-trades that do the R&D as well as firefighting production problems.
Industry average is probably around 40-60k, lower on the east coast with exception to metropolitan areas, higher on the west coast particularly Bay Area and So. California. Animators tend to make more than modelers and texture artists because animation seems to be the least forgiving from a critic's point of view and tend to be so specialized to the point that they don't even have Photoshop on their workstations. Concept artists tend to do pretty good as well, although they're rarely used as dedicated concept artists and usually have to share some of the modeling or texturing duties.
Bear in mind, different companies have different approaches when it comes to production and emphasis on skillsets vary. Some companies don't even have animators because they rely on mo-cap. Some companies have dedicated level mappers that partner up with texture artists which is most common in the Quake/Unreal development scene while other companies have their level/environment artists do their own textures.
To be able to rise in salary, your traditional skills don't need necessarily need to improve significantly but you do have to be able to take an a wider variety of tasks or need less guidance and supervision, or start managing other artists.

I have actually seen a few hybrid programmer/artists that managed to be pretty darn good at both programming and art, but it was always difficult for them to manage to keep up to date on the programming side. They're really rare, but can they manage to be competent at both. They usually end up primarily being an artist and take a supporting role programming wise.

To give you an idea of how strong your traditional skills need to be, I would say the average game industry artist's draftmenship skills are probably slightly less than the caliber of your average comic book artist. The harsh reality is that they usually stay at that level, although many of us including those that are reading this are trying to avoid this fate, which is much easier before you've started a family.

To be able to rise in salary, your traditional skills don't need necessarily to improve significantly but you do have to be able to take an a wider variety of tasks or need less guidance and supervision, or start managing other artists.

If a recruiter or company tries to woo you with stock options or bonuses, don't take the bait. They are purely gravy and rarely pan out unless a company is doing phenomenally well. Even then, how well your stock options do for you is completely up to the scruples of your executive management.

[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: MadSamoan ]

[razzak]

thak god everyone. i dont really like programming that much either, whooohooo what a relief. also ver nice insight into the industry MadSamoan. is there anything else that anyone would consider very important that we havent talked about?

[sunraven0]

Thanks MadSamoan, very helpful. I see that you're in Moorpark. I used to live in Oxnard while I was on my first internship.