[Svanur]

The ideal world will be present sometimes in the far far far far far far future, where the Human race has mingled so much that there won't be any white, black or asian, there will only be "The Human" race. I believe that the skin tone will be in the darker range, with slightly slanted eyes. ie the future race will probably get dominant trademarks of each race and then put it into a blender. If anyone wants to try and imagine the humans then and then draw them. He is welcome.

[Ian]

America is fucked.

>log on

>initialize RANT� V.4.3

>?GO�

Kids in the U.S. are ADDICTS to, Television, culture (heh), lies, false perceptions of reality, capitalism, consumerism, wannaberichism, and lots of other fun stuff. Most people in the states are fucking ASLEEP! The public school systems are a joke and hey ho, what's the national pastime? YOU SAID IT! TV! Just plug me the fuck in. Well, we are ranting about the states but Sinagpore is just as bad. IN THE SENSE THAT: Singaporeans (the majority, like 99.9%) are ASLEEP. They study their asses off, go to work, get money and BUY SHIT. etc. repeat...

fuck 'em all...

-ian


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Sit on my face, and tell me that you LOVE me!

[edible snowman]

the problem is the our democracy isn't really a democrary. our judicial branch is biased and overreaching, and our legislative system just entangles everything and screws it up. on top of that we are not represented by our senators, we only get to vote for the richest lying bastards in our entire country. politics doesn't represent the people it actually affects, and doesn't get a hell of a lot done anyway.

[FaithInChaos]

man, you dont get it. we dont get to vote for president at all. we vote for the electors who are the ones who get to vote (for president).

[Jason]

IF we had a world war would we still be able to meat on the forum?

[Jezebel]

Americans aren't the only ones that have misconceptions of other countries. I think that is a VERY weak argument. You don't know how many times I've been asked, "Do you have a horse?" "You live on a farm right?" "So is everyone in Texas racist?" "What's it like living in the desert?" "Do you eat lots of beef?"

This thread disgusts me. Nobody I know has every possessed the amount of knowledge needed to judge an entire country based on a handful of people. It's not even possible. That's why these arguments are so rediculously stupid. I can't believe it's even been brought up again.

I'm Texan. I've never lived on a farm. I don't own cowboy boots. I only use the phrase "yeehaw" in sarcastic situations. I am a vegetarian. My boyfriend is bi-racial and I don't own a confederate flag. I don't call my brother "Bubba" and the area I live in is not even close to desert terrain.

Sorry for the rant, I'm in a bad mood today

Beth

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Take off your clothes. It's OK - I'm an artist.

http://div.dyndns.org/FOO
http://div.dyndns.org/beth/photography

[Darklighter]

jezebel is the voice of reason in a thread of ok, yet, misguided ideas.... i moved to the u.s. five years ago from europe, and what can i say? i hate it and i'm going back, but i don't think i can ever escape all the bullshit i despise on this world. Egoism & endless greed, that's where everything spawns from, imho.... i'm a big metal fan, because they are generally nice people who scream at and defy all the bs in this world. you could say i'm depressed, and no pill is ever going to fix that, only society as a whole can. I see Trent Reznor as one of the greatest people alive today, and he's a big inspiration to the art and everything i do. *sigh* so wtf am i trying to say? i don't really know, but let me this with some Nine Inch Nails lyrics....

so impressed with all you do
tried so hard to be like you
flew too high and burnt the wing
lost my faith in everything
lick around divine debris
taste the wealth of hate in me
shedding skin succumb defeat
this machine is obsolete

[wayfinder]

i just wanted to get off my chest that you cannot win a war. the second you enter it, you have lost.

thanks for your attention.

[Typo Dave]

Coupla things:

1. You guys are using a strange way of measuring who won WW1&2 when you compare body counts. In both WW1 and WW2 it was analysed by geography. Wasn't until the Korean war body counts were used to ascertain how effective the war was going - and in that case, the greater the body count, the greater the loss - not the greater the victory. And even then at the end of the day most historians look at it from a geographic point of view (as do contemporary political strategists). If you want to judge sacrifice in a war, then yes the Russians have it.

2. WW1 was undeniably won when the US entered that war, and contributed manpower to the war effort. It broke the stalemate that had occurred in Europe and prompted the Germans to commence the counter-offensive called the Battle of the Bulge, which they lost.

3. WW2 in Europe was mainly won by the Russians, and the Russian winter, culminating in the Battle of Stalingrad. By happenstance the rest of the Allies had launched an invasion of Europe. The German army had been most pulverised in the snow.

The Pacific theatre was different - the US stopped the Japanese at the Battle of the Coral Sea from invading Australia, and there was also the Battle of Midway and Guandacanal during which the US broke the Japanese fleet. Rather than besiege Japan and run the risk of another Okinawa, Truman decided to use the bomb. There is a school of thought - to which I belong - which argues that truman used the bomb unnecessarily, but that is an argument for another day.

4. I am constantly surprised when I "meet" Americans on the internet how ignorant they are of things outside of America, but think that this is a cultural issue arising from the perception that the US is the greatest power in the world and will continue to be. No doubt the Romans saw the same thing, and were just as ignorant of other cultures. Living in south China I tend to see the same perceptions amongst the Chinese here, so I think that it is perhaps symptomatic of people who belong to proud and great cultures.

The reality is that the current US hegemony, inherited from England, is the last gasp of Western power.

In 1900 the West dominated most of the world. The British Empire controlled the Middle East, India and Pakistan, and the western powers had divided up China and Africa.

By 1945, with the advent of the Cold War, the "First World" had diminished. Decolonisation had produced the Third World. Western influence in those areas had evaporated.

By 1989, with the end of the Cold War, Western power had shrunk even further. Instead of there only being "one superpower", there was instead a recognition of multi-polar interests in the world, ground down into 7 or 8 geographical areas, depedning upon whether you count Africa. Bush's "new world order" wasn't what people thought it was.

The West will continue to shrink (and has - Hong Kong, where I live, now has got the Chinese flag flying over it and the People's Liberation Army have a barracks a block away from where I am writing this).

The fastest growing philosphy in the world is Islam, which encompasses most of the Middle East, India and south east Asia. Western concepts of democracy and capitalism can't keep up with that.

Westerners will continue to be affluent because of their technological edge.

Proud Americans love their nuclear weapons, but they don't have a monopoly over them, and can't strike terrorists (like Bin Laden) with a nuke.

The next 20 to 50 years will really be interesting times as we continue to watch the West implode and other cultures explode.

------------------
For thought provoking discussion, come and visit the Society for the Perpetuation of Independent Thought


http://nexus.mobiusinfinity.com/cgi-bin//Ultimate.cgi

[sacrelicious]

Interesting, terrifying- you can take your pick.

Typo Dave- I've read a couple of your recent posts here, and I like the cut of your jib. I'm looking forward to reading more of what you have to say. Take it easy, everyone.

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Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.

[Typo Dave]

Thank you for the nautical compliment. If you want to talk more about politics and philosophy and other stuff, check out my sig.

Unhelpfully the site is down right now (which is why I'm here) but its where some diametrically opposed people chat in a flame free environment. All are welcome.

------------------
For thought provoking discussion, come and visit the Society for the Perpetuation of Independent Thought


http://nexus.mobiusinfinity.com/cgi-bin//Ultimate.cgi

[eureka]

Freedom and liberty to live life as you see fit without government interference is the best measure of the finest country. If you live in a country that has that then you are among the best.

Also, how can you not like England!? England rocks!!

[Frozen Consciousness]

As a resident of the cold grey island, England rocks about 70% of the time... it's fallen to about 50% now we've had that god-awful train crash and that Foot&Mouth thing that's threatening to wipe out ALL our livestock. That's if we don't set fire to them first of course.

Did I mention that our PM is unfit to be classed as a Human?

*Looks out window* Heh... NOW it starts to snow. Fantastic.



------------------
------------------------
Frozen mind, Frozen cause, Frozen Reality.

[Typo Dave]

quote:

---

Originally posted by eureka:
Freedom and liberty to live life as you see fit without government interference is the best measure of the finest country. If you live in a country that has that then you are among the best.

Also, how can you not like England!? England rocks!!

---

I live in Hong Kong, which has next to no government welfare and low tax. There are beggars on the streets and more Ferraris than I have ever seen. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. The poor have no freedom to live as they see fit because they can't afford to do that. Its hardly a model of enlightened living.



------------------
For thought provoking discussion, come and visit the Society for the Perpetuation of Independent Thought


http://nexus.mobiusinfinity.com/cgi-bin//Ultimate.cgi

[Affected]

Typo Dave: In that case, Hong Kong only meets part of the criteria eureka set for the best society - the part about as little government interference as possible. Since the poor in that society are in such an unfortunate position, that society does not offer "freedom and liberty to live life as you see fit".

------------------
Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[eureka]

Perhaps I should have said; The freedom and liberty to pursue happiness without government interference.

[eureka]

One of my friends told me to read a John Stossel story titled, "Is America #1?" on the ABC news site. Kinda cool, I dunno.
http://abcnews.go.com/onair/ABCNEWSSpecials/stossel990919_scriptA.html

[Giant Hamster]

sit on my face, and tell me that you love me!

I'm a lumberjack and Im O.K!

Spam! Spam! Spam! Spam!

Always look on the bright side of life...

Every sperm is sacred! Every sperm is great!

sooo, tell me what you want, what you really really want! I'll tell you what I want, what I really re......hmm...that's not right!

And now, for something completely different...

------------------
-JameZ the Giant Hamster-

The Hamster Alliance
AIM: Gianthmstr
Multimedia Producer/designer/all of the above.,overall guru :)...and music music music! weee!!

[nt]

Huh what a teacher! I just don't believe where this world is going! Is our stupidity our destruction?

[sacrelicious]

Short answer: yes.

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What is your obsession with my forbidden closet of mystery?

[klaivu]

quote:

---

STOSSEL: (VO) Yes, we do pollute, but despite the scare-mongering, America�s cleaner than most other countries. The pollution in parts of Asia and Europe is much worse.

...
STOSSEL: (VO) Most of the time, even the poorest person going to the emergency room gets the same high-tech, cutting edge treatment that lures foreign leaders like Jordan�s King Hussein to American hospitals. MRI machines, for example� the state of Ohio alone has more of these than all of Britain, or France.

D�SOUZA: The secret is now out. People know that if you want to be the pilot of your own life, if you want to make your own destiny, there�s only one place to do it and that is in America.

---

uhmmhhh...

Every fault people could point out, they just passed with a " Yes, there is a problem, but it's only minor, and its so much worse elsewhere. " Does that make America #1 ? Basically the document focused on pointing out and underlining the faults in other countries. All too many Americaisgreats in it to take seriously..

Hehheh.They forgot DDT and MTBE on that list of great gifts to the world. Oh, and hamburger chains.

Whew. Nice blahblah.



[This message has been edited by klaivu (edited March 07, 2001).]

[Affected]

The interesting bit about the Stossel transcript was that - as usuay - the glory of the free market was heavily emphasized. However, if you think about it, USA and other highly developed countries only push free trade on weaker countries, while themselves practicing protectionism, much like Britain did in colonial times. This development has been very clear since WWII. Already the Marshall aid was tied to commitments to buy food from the US, enabling USA to sell it's grain at prices lower than their competitors, for example Argentina, whose grain export clearly decreased. This weakened Argentina's general development, which made it easier for US companies to take over industry there, and ensured Argentina would not become a serious competitor to USA.The Food For Peace program had similar ties.

Now, one of the main principles of free trade is that governments are NOT to interfere with companies, especially not through subventions. However, during the cold war, the Pentagon was quite blatantly used just for that purpose, although as Kennedy's air force minister stressed, it was not to be spoken of as 'subventions', but rather 'defense expenses', which were easier to sell to the people than the government spending money to keep companies alive. But that WAS the point - the Pentagon made sure their expenses matched the needs of the arms industry, especially where avionics was concerned. In fact, neither Boeing not Lockheed-Martin, both tremendously successful companies, would be around today if they hadn't received notable benefits from the US government.

It should be noted that the US is not alone with these practices. In fact, just about all of the countries that have developed notably have done so by radically differing from the norms for free trade set by the WTO, and the institutions that control it.Look at Japan - they prospered immensely while maintaining strict government control over the economy, and only after they had reached a stable economy did they start to take up free trade. But then they've been having trouble recently, haven't they?

The point here is, that the economically strong countries are very keen on pressuring others into opening up their borders for foreign corporations, while themselves enforcing strictly protectionist policies - manipulating market prices by giving their own companies notable government-funded benefits while telling others NOT to do so. Something doesn't click here, now, does it?


Edit: Typo, Oh typo...
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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw



[This message has been edited by Affected (edited March 14, 2001).]

[eureka]

It's not just the national governments alone that interfere with free exchange. Special interest groups can use the government for their own ends. A labor union in a first might use public opinion to pressure companies in poor companies to pay wages equal to wages in developed countries to discourage competition.

[eureka]

I think the most important point of the report was that the more personal freedom that individuals had, the better off they were.

DDT and MTBE. Point taken.

Hamburger chains. I don't know what the reality is in Finland, but in most countries you can choose not to eat at a hamburger chain. If the chains are successful then people have made their own choice to eat there. I'm sorry that they made a decision that you don't like. Perhaps laws restricting dining habits should be applied until people start making the "correct" choice.

[Affected]

True, but my point is that the neoliberalism the WTO pushes is not designed to help poor countries develop, but to subdue them.

------------------
Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[eureka]

Could you give me your definition of "neoliberalism"? I'm not sure my young mind understands it fully.

[Affected]

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/neoliberalism.html

Covers the history and development. Basically, Neoliberalism is the free market faith at it's extreme. However, as I pointed out, the institutions that preach the free market don't necessarely live by it's rules at all.