[peter]

i would not say that us-americans are stupid. the density of stupid people is quite equal all over the world i think. imho its ok if americans cant separate sweden from finnland. the most people here dont know every federal state of usa so it is comparable.

i think usa is the leader regarding economy and science today, they brought us the internet and it is a good lots of good scientist from all over the world go to usa cause they have better conditions there, and earn more money. so economy and science walk hand in hand and make usa that powerfull.

snowman: i went to school in former gdr and we had also a very stupid education system. well i dont want to compare it with yours, but e.g. we had a school book about europe and alle pictures from socialist countries were colored and the pictures from western europe had been all black and white. and so was the education: socialism good, capitalism wrong.

my only critics to the usa is the nmd. and perhaps the cia. i mean the usa is the strongest military power in the world and they say "we want nothing than keep peace and freedom", but they even plan to put more money into military (nmd). so the military industry will grow and establish and there will be more lobbiests that support the next president that again will push the military. its a vicious circle. if you have a gun you probably will use it,thats why i dont like the huge miltary investments of usa.

cheers
peter

[This message has been edited by peter (edited February 14, 2001).]

[elam]

quote:

---

Originally posted by [Shizo]:
Elam and Impaler, im not gonna try to make you believe in the opposite of what your teachers have been feeding you. And yes, america - 500,000 russia - 250,000,000 lost in WW2. I hoped at least the numbers would make it obvious for you but they didn't..

---

Shizo,
your high. Even Russia's own estimates are at about 4,000,000+.
Forget WWII. How many people did Stalin murder? 20,000,000. Your obviously biased. You get your information from relatives? I get mine from RESEARCH. Try it.


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Elam
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"Name? Loc Dog. Age? 19. Sex? Hell yeah, nigga!"

[peter]

i've found these numbers:

20.000.000 cccr
~9.000.000 china
5.250.000 germany
4.500.000 polnia
1.800.000 japan
1.700.000 jugoslavia
810.000 france
386.000 uk
330.000 italia
259.000 usa

source (sorry german language):
ww2

yep ive also red, stalin murdered millions of people. on the other hand he developed a poor agrar nation towards a industry nation within very few years. but it is no excuse to kill people. those were quite strange times...


[This message has been edited by peter (edited February 15, 2001).]

[Spitfire]

quote

Quote:

And you do? What are you, 17? Did you fight in any wars? Dumbass.

Your point being?

quote

Quote:

You don't "see America doing the same thing" cause your ignorant.

Nope, because i see 50 years of post-WWII America throwing bombs on easy civillian targets in europe and the middle east whenever they feel it will benefit their economic situation.

quote

Quote:

Black Americans have fought and continue to fight for their freedoms. They've sacrificed as much as anyone.

And what is your point this time? You cant possibly believe that black americans embody what your average Joe "NRA for life" Johnson in his trailer park sees as his beloved Land Of The Free And Home Of The Not Even Remotely Fucking Brave...

Want to see your country for what it is? Watch Jerry Springer and eat a hamburger.

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I am but a statue, impervious to love.

[Ragnarok]

Faith, if the USA gets the space shield, the world weapons equilibrium will be destroyed and a new weapons career will start.
Now think how the world was when the last one ended, after WWII. And before WWI there was a weapons career too.

[Count Zero]

Spit: ouch.

I won't bother taking much part in this conversation beyond just saying that the American government and military wanted to join in and help in World War II, but the public opinion was VERY strongly against it. It was understandable as WWI was still in fresh memory, America was battling with the depression and the general public didn't want to lose another generation of men in war "somewhere way over there". Which is exactly what it felt like to the average person. Pearl Harbour brought the reality of the war to America, and gave the government the "excuse" to join the war they'd been looking for.

Now, I'm no historian or social psychologist, but I'm pretty sure that this would have happened with any other country as well if it were as isolated as America is.

When talking about countries it is just plain stupid to use a single person as an example, or even a thousand. The decisions of an entire country can be analyzed accurately only in retrospect in my opinion.

As for elam, you should try to keep it cool. These conversations can become annoying flamewars too easily. As for age, I think nationality plays a stonger part in war and what is thought about it. I live in a country where military service is compulsory for all males. Our history and the prevailing social atmosphere is totally different from America. People in America do not have to give even a passing thought about dying for their country. Here, you are reminded about it and the sacrifice made by our grandfathers for our freedom through the army, if nothing else.

[elam]

My point, Spitfire, is that in your previous statement, you criticize Americans for not knowing what it's like to fight for freedom and you imply you've fought for yours, which you obviously haven't.
You sterotype all Americans, hence your ignorance. You are the pot calling the kettle black. Should I judge all Hollanders(is that right?) by your statements and actions? Are you all judgmental, whining people? I met two Hollanders back in 96 when the world cup semi's were in Detroit. They were cool. I reserve my judgement for individuals, not an entire group of people.


My example of African-Americans does embody a principle of American culture. Fighting and sacrificing for equalilty and freedom. No, modern day Joe "NRA for life" Johnson probably doesn't see a correlation between himself and Black culture. But in the 50's and 60's their was cooperation between poor southern whites and blacks to achieve equality economically and socially.

I love and dislike my country, depending on my mood. I love it because it offers, IMO, a dizzying array of cultures and people fused into a gigantic entertainment system. Where else can a wrestler who use to wear pink tights become govenor of a state? I hate it because it can be extremely hypocritical.
I am QUALIFIED to make statements and opinions about the U.S. because I live here.
You are not.
Sounds like the only one whatching Jerry Springer is you, hence your ignorance.
Would you please read you own post before responding to mine?



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Elam
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"Name? Loc Dog. Age? 19. Sex? Hell yeah, nigga!"

[This message has been edited by elam (edited February 15, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by elam (edited February 15, 2001).]

[Bradford]

...

[This message has been edited by Bradford (edited February 15, 2001).]

[Frozen Consciousness]

This isn't a "I'm High and Mighty, you are all grubs" post.

Hmm... shouldn't we be bitching about the Leaders rather than the Populous, assuming that the bitching continues? Since they are the ones who cause the problems.

Take this little example...
If an Average Person in Generica (A Generic place where all the Average People live) decides to wage war on someone then he just get's funny looks and gets put on "I'm a Moron" after 11pm. If the Grand Leader of Generica decides to wage war he or she brings together all like-minded people and Declares war, sending the Average Person to do his/her evil bidding.

I want to travel the world to see the diverseness of people, but until then I'm just going to have to put up with Stereotypes and "Bias".

Besides, we're all human. So underneath we're just a bag of guts that think big thoughts (like, "Where shall we eat?" rather than "Where is my next meal?").

We're all equal
We're all born equal.
We all die equal.

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Frozen mind, Frozen cause, Frozen Reality.

[edible snowman]

i wasn't even implying that america is a bad place to live, i think there are a proportionate number of stupid people everywhere. I've only met the american ones because i dont travel much. The thing that amazed me, was that my actual teacher was teaching us, in class, that america is better than everyone else. I guess this is the new cirriculum or something. Especially since i know someone in there is dumb enough to quote her down the line, I've given up on most teachers though. And I forget who said it, put I agree, president bush is an embarrassment to our country, but it has made for some funny saturday night live skits.

[tayete]

ELAM, syphilis was brought *FROM AMERICA*. It was brought by the sailors that had contact with the original inhabitants of the new continent. This disease was well known by these native people, and knew how to treat it with natural medicines and plants.

Thus, it was called "The Spanish Disease" by French people (as Spain was the main traveler to America by that time), "The Italian Disease" by the Spaniards (trying to put the blame in our neighbours), and so on...

But ELAM, if you ever consider consulting your history book, this kind of infection, is AMERICAN, ONLY AMERICAN, AND PURELY AMERICAN.

On the other hand...we Europeans brought there the flu, which killed nearly half of the original population in Cuba and other places...

[Frozen Consciousness]

So what you're saying is that politicians are slimy gut-sucking parasites because that's expected of them?!

It's nothing personal but I don't agree...

You can't ignore the fact that they must (logically) be thinking "Oh, the people chose me... therefore all my ideas (stupid or otherwise) are excellent!". We give them the power and then they (convieniently) forget us... what gratitude...

I'll quote an exibit from the Tate Modern gallery in London. It is simply one of those Matrix Signs with the message
"Politics Is Used For Personal Gain"

It's true. Every politician is in it for himself and no-one else.

(I'm going off the point a bit... but isn't this a conversation and debate?)

We didn't end up "Modern", with all this technology by being selfish bastards.

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Frozen mind, Frozen cause, Frozen Reality.

[This message has been edited by Frozen Consciousness (edited February 15, 2001).]

[FaithInChaos]

you could argue the point, at least in the u.s.a., that we are responsible for our leaders decisions (on the basis that they make their decisions based on the needs and wants of the people they represent.)

the u.s.a. is a republic not a democracy. in the u.s.a. officals are elected to represent the "common-man." this does not mean the officals have to do what is in the best interests of those he/she represents. in this country, it is a common misconception that the people elect a president. the people elect, electors who vote for a president and vice-president. the electors have the freedom to vote for who ever they want, reguardless of the wishes of those who elected him/her.

the peoples vote is nothing more than a poll of the peoples will, of course electors might use it as a guideline (if they want to stay in office.) but there is nothing that says electors have to follow the will of the people. bush jr. presidential election is an example of this. if the u.s.a. was a democracy, al gore would have been elected president; because al gore won the peoples vote. ...aka the majority vote, the popular vote, ect

it is not easy for the people of the u.s.a. to fire government officals just because they feel they are not being represented, its much easier to wait till election and vote someone else into office to represent their will and best interests. if a president or anyother government offical makes a decision or action that does not follow with the will of the people. how can you hold the "comman man" responsible?

if a government offical is ignoring the will of the people that elected him/her, that government offical is now acting as an indavidual and not as a representative.

and as for a president who is elected without the majority of the country behind him, he is no longer acting on the will or best interests of the country as a majority, but on the will and interests of a minority. so please tell me how i can be to blame or held responsible for the actions and decisions George Bush Jr. makes while he is in office (being that i belong to the majority of people who didnt vote for him.)?!

[This message has been edited by FaithInChaos (edited February 15, 2001).]

[PandaX52]

isnt everything you do motivated by personal gain?

sure, you could do something for someone...but why?

so YOU can have that fuzzy feeling inside...

[Bradford]

I can't believe all this stuff is being talked about, again.

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[email protected]
icq:3704871

[Dthind]

quote:

---

Originally posted by [Shizo]:
[B]Thats what all americans think i guess, because i have the same thing in my class of History too.
Besides everybody except america knows that WW2 was won by russia with help of european and some euro-asian countries.

I dont listen to what teachers say, i listen to what my relatives told me who gathered together and told stories of how it was.

PS:
total american losses at WW2 - 500,000
total russian losses at WW2 - 250,000,000

B]

---

btw, many of the russian losses were directly attributed to mr. stalin's choices, not actual combat casualities.

[DirtyDigger]

Faith in chaos is severely misguided.

Sure the electors casts their vote...I would hate to see what would happen to them if they did not vote for who the people chose for their region (i.e. public outcry, many assassination attempts, etc...). It's not just about them not being re-appointed, it is about them surviving. As far as democracy, it is not solely reliant, by its definition, upon being based on the popular vote.

Also in regards to political stance and Mr. Bush, I will digress on that issue, since the majority of people here are artists and they are notoriously liberal in their stance.

BTW War casualty numbers are meaningless as a comparison to who fought hardest. Tactics and technology have a lot to do with the numbers.

hell in Age of Empires 2 I routinely clean up the enemy with a 1 to 10 death ratio. I do it through tactics and tech not because I am unwilling to fight and don't want to win (I know stupid example, but kinda shows that numbers don't mean shit).



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"I Hear High Heels!" - DirtyDigger

[Ragnarok]

Now I see your politcal system is quite different from the democracies we have in europe.
Here the president and the prime minister usually are voted by their programs and ideas and they carry them out if they can.

Oh, and I have to agree with Dirtydigger. If I remember it right, russian tanks were inferior to german ones and they fought with more people in their lack of technollogy.
But those people were brave enough to carry it out and succed in avoiding the invasion.

[elam]

Apologies. Meant smallpox

------------------
Elam
-------
"Name? Loc Dog. Age? 19. Sex? Hell yeah, nigga!"

[FaithInChaos]

umm.

democracy is majority rule...look it up in a dictionary if you dont believe me

[Ragnarok]

Frozen, we choose our politicians, so we make the real decision of giving them the right of taking decisions.
You can't blame them for doing what people expect from them.

[Frozen Consciousness]

My guess is We still discuss this type of crap because it's a really sore subject which deserves to be argued about.

Ok, let's throw this at the fan... If the definiton of "Democracy" is "Majority Rule" why do we give the power to a single person?

I don't see that a warm feeling inside is classed as Personal Gain. Not when It's helping someone else. Personal Gain (in my custom dictonary of terms anyway) is where you climb the ladder and stamp on people's figures rather than risk letting them be above you.

Besides, Picking someone up, dusting them off and setting them off again will make them help you when you fall over and don't want to run anymore.

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Frozen mind, Frozen cause, Frozen Reality.

[Affected]

Dthind: True indeed. Can you say 30000 Finnish casualties versus 200000 Russian ones?

Anyway, as for the actual discussion, this is what I have to say:

Blah. Blah, blahblah. blahblah blaabla - blaaaaaaaa.



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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw

[Frozen Consciousness]

Isn't that all a discussion is?
Who said you HAD to read and agree with everything written here?

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Frozen mind, Frozen cause, Frozen Reality.

[Count Zero]

Much less reply

[Spitfire]

Finland rules cause it's entirely made up of cynic fucks like Heikki and Jussi.

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I am but a statue, impervious to love.

[schabe]

...
finland finland finland,
the country where i quite want to be.
...

[Svanur]

Okay, everyone knows that the most common question a foreigner gets from americans are stereotypical questions. "Are you a bullfighter"(Spain) "Do you live in a snowhouse?"(Iceland) What I usually answer is "Yes I live in a five story block snowhouse with an elevator" and most of the time I get "really?"

Ah well, this was just something I had to get out of my system. It's true that there are many stupid Americans, but hey, there are a lot of stupid Icelanders here.

The Truth is, that stupid people make the loudest noises. So believe me, when we have a nation as huge as the USA, the noise is like a waterfall. If Icelanders were as many as US citizens we would probably be regarded as stupid.

But I have to agree to Edible snowman, those history classes you are having suck. It's fine to talk about how great ones nation is, Here in Iceland we are forced to read about our liberation from Denmark. Nothing special about it except it was done without bloodshed. No guns were fired, no one died. That's what made it special. But we are also taught about Russia, the US and rest of Europe and Asia. History is here to make sure we don't make the same mistakes, so history won't repeat itself. This is something that might be taken care of in US. Teach them REAL history so they won't make the same mistakes.

Bottom line is, I have had american friends who were both great friends and they were far from stupid and I have also known american people that ask the same, ever so, stupid questions "Is Iceland the 54 state of America?"(not sure how many states are there. Forgive me.)

[Count Zero]

Spitfire, no it isn't.
Well, yeah, ok, it IS, but that's not the point...

[Affected]

I mainly meant to communicate my amusement/disregard for nationalist pride and attempts to divide people into nations. It's all a bunch of blahblah to me.

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Affected

Democracy is a lie

http://affected.xs.mw