[Lunatique]

I personally don't have a problem with erotic art, But, since this is a public forum with younger members too, where do we draw the line?

Do we draw the line at the depiction of intercourse or showing of genitalia?

What if someone posted work that's of similar quality to guys like Hajime Sorayama, Serpieri, or Milo Manara? I mean, they are excellent artists, but with motivations and ideas similar to the recent posts that generated negative reactions. It would be a shame to miss out on kickass artwork of that calibur, but the subject matter surely will cause a flame war.

Your thoughts?

[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[EviLToYLeT]

Well, there is no line for when art is art and when art is porn. The line is simply inexistent.. there's always idiots who are saying that those two things are completely different. This all probably stems from jealousy or something of the sort... or those artists who don't wish to associate with more graphic artists.

anyway, that was a completely random section. Anyway, the same thing goes for the internet. There should be no line. Instead, I think the art works dealing with this subject matter should be clearly labeled. Sure it might bring attention to younger folk - but hey, you can't blame their budding curiousity.... but you can sure blame their parents for not regulating.

And that will secondly protect those people who don't wanan view that material.. simply don't click on the damn link. I find it ironic how some posts are headed with "Very graphic nudity click only if you are really not easily offendeD" or something like that...and some dipshit always post inside that thread saying "That was the grossest thing i ever saw. you are a sick fuck." or something of that sort.

*shrug* i think some people just like to come looking for trouble and ... well, like that previous asian photo manip... people obviously were curious to see it.. even though you had to click on the link look at the source and copy and paste... *shrug* , their fault.

[vurx]

I think that there are certain legal ramifications that need to be addressed as well as cultural/moral ones. Lets say, oh, that someone posts a pic of a girl and a giant robot in an erotic embrace and a minor finds his/her way to the thread and looks at the picture. His/Her responsible parent finds offensive picture on the computer and takes legal action. Who are the targets? Because there will be targets. Will the creator of the picture be liable? Probably not purely for its creation, freedom of expression protects porn. What about the one that posted the link? Yes, but there was a �warning� in the topic (real deterrent there. Remember the user agreement you agreed to when you signed up to become a member? �You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.�).

I�m not sure how far the user agreement will go to actually protect the owner of the forum, so I think that its just common courtesy to refrain from posting links or images to �sexually oriented� material.

-- vurx

[Anthony]

I would say let's avoid explicit sexual intercourse or images with a focus on the vagina or penis. Note I say focus - obviously figure drawings will often contain such areas, but we need not dwell on them. I won't say what is or isn't art, but I do think that we must be responsible for our younger viewers.

[SpeeDFX]

yes yes yes. and I must say bla bla bla, this is a topic with a gradation of an infinate amount of opinions which usually goes overboard. Lets just say thigs, when you view an art forum, expect ANYTHING. Who's knows what people want to show or express.

[fuel_99]

ripped off head on dinner plate=no problem

nakedness=oh my god.. lets protect our children from this!

posts a model of a shotgun=whoa, cool!

posts a drawing of breasts=pervert!!

sometimes i don't quite understand-
(yes, I was exaggerating a bit-
its just weird that violence is never a topic)

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: fuel_99 ]

[fuel_99]

i just saw the pic you were probably talking about.. (not the one with the robot I guess)

okay, this IS over the line- I agree on that.

[c]

i was just about to chime in and say 'post whatever you want just have the subject say *nudity/graphic/porn/whatever* so ppl dont accidentally click on it at work or something'.

but

i looked at the gallery and saw the mecha-hentai and that weird paintover and it kind of bothered me. i'm no prude, my immense pron collection will attest to that, but seeing that kind of stuff on sijun doesn't seem appropriate.

i don't know.

[PixHortHiT]

I�ll go with C on this one..

[Gimbal8]

I can understand why people would be offended by that one porn paintover, I was mostly offended in that it had absolutely no artistic value to me at all and I felt I totally wasted my time clicking on that thread.

But the reaction to the robot thing I didn't quite expect from everyone. Kinda strange. I didn't think everyone would be into robot/human sexual relationships (I didn't even know such a fetish existed) but the apparent level of offense taken by it was much higher then I thought it would be.

Anyway, I differentiate between 'offensive' and 'inappropriate'. Even if I'm not personally offended by something, it still may be inappropriate.

I'm sure there are some good hentai type forums out there (are there?)where this kind of art would be better appreciated.

So where do the majority of Sijuners' draw the line? My guess would be intercourse (including mech-sex apparently)and any graphic nudity without artistic merrit.

[edible snowman]

it doesn't really bother me if there is a warning in the title, and if it is particularly explicit, a description and a link.

[SpeeDFX]

why do pictures of intercourse BOTHER you? there's a lot worse things in the world then seeing a robot have sex with a human, in a cartoon drawing, actually I found it quite comical.

[vurx]

It ultimately boils down to clicking agree or cancel�

[wienerbot]

Well I didn't mean to rock the boat quite this much, I feel like I need to defend myself just a bit. Honestly, I never read the terms of service or agreement or whatever, I am guilty of that. My personal opinion is that sijun has the right to run this place the way they want. I am new to all of this but I think it's too bad that I can't post that kind of stuff here. I suppose it's a good thing that this discussion is happening though because outside of what I did it is surely an issue that will resurface. I'm not sexually disfunctional but I am seriously exploring some darker fantasies at the moment and it is a delicate process. I try to be considerate and generally pleasant in life, but my mind does not always confine itself to pleasant and lighthearted ideas, nor do I expect it to, especially when it comes to sexuality. Human sexuality is fairly mysterious at times and this pleases me. But I understand that these aren't ideas that everyone is prepared to address. I went to art college and noticed that there was extreme prejudice there about what was real art or whatever but I thought that people here wouldn't be so snooty. Don't get me wrong a level-headed decision to exclude work of this nature is fine with me; I just don't think people need to get so moist about it. By the way many people mention other erotic art forums that I could join...can anyone recommend any?

[Sumaleth]

This is an issue that has no right or wrong. It basically comes down to social acceptence, and this will vary from country to country, city to city, suburb to suburb and person to person.

It's true that violent imagery gets posted here every day with barely a word from us moderators, yet the sexual stuff always gets a second look. But there is a difference between artistic violence and artistic pornography. A violent picture is just a picture, but a pornographic image tends to be something more; smutty? I don't know what the right word is, but with violent images you dont get people posting "whoa, check out the gash on that". Porn images always get viewed on the two distinct levels; art and titilation.

My real concern is that if these sorts of images become allowed then it opens the flood gates for more and more smutty imagery. It could turn into a soft-porn forum, with artistic value coming second. And don't kid yourself, artistic value will come second in most cases.

There are bound to be countless forums specially for that type of art, so for now we can keep Sijun clean.

Row.

[xino]

first off let me state that I don't care either way if "nude" or "graphic" images get posted...I look at the art and nothing more..I could care less if they have clothes on or not...

and on the topic of "artistic violence"....I just find that a bad term and I don't mean to ruffle anyone's fingers but if anyone here has ever seen "Apocalypse Now" the cow slaughter scene near the end was artistic violence but truly distasteful

in these times of our world I find any violence distasteful...

if we really want to think about it ALL forms of nudity and violence should be banned equally since it's only a short time that such a well-known and respected forum as Sijun's is found in the Favorite's files of IE in some school massacre killers hard drive...now if id (software) gets bad publicity and they have suits filed against them what do you think will happen to a little webpage like this one?...I hate to think of the consequences of such actions myself....

after all that's how they blamed id & Doom

just a thought but if you were going to ban one form of creative expression then all others along the same lines as "immorally acceptable" should be throw out in the same way...

now I in no way mean to belittle or deman or even start a flame war but if people are going to start enforcing the rules in such a way then I think it should be fair and go straight across the board for everyone.

it's only fair.

but seeing as how I'm not a MOD nor do I host the website this is not up to me but merely something for people to let their mind chew on....

Thank you for letting me rant

[Liser Studios]

yeah... it kind of depends on the person. i mean, my friend is taking a drawing class in college, and they were copying an old masters drawing. he did that creation of man by Michaelangelo (where god is touching fingertips with adam) i don't think it's sexual at all. but he insisted on putting hanes boxers on him. it was funny, yes, but it was unnecessary: it wasn't pornographic whatsoever. He considers it lust, but it's obviously not.

but oh well... you'll have that.

[Lukiaz]

(completley agrees with fuel_99)

Feeling disgusted about such content is a conditioning people get through living in a twisted society(most countries).
The exceptence of violent art and the heated arguments & hatred for so called porn is twisted.
Its stupid humans that made sex disgusting in the first place.
Death is fine & acceptable.
Human sexuality is disgusting.

In todays society violence is tolerated & quite normal...NATURAL. Yet sex is deemed wrong and UNNATURAL.
Some may argue that its HOW its depicted.

It becomes weird or odd, as many humans turn it into something weird or odd.

I young asain girl screwing a robot is laughably odd....not disgusting.
Its still the sexual part of it that people find disgusting.
What exact factor is disgusting?
Those who think "it just is", really need to delve into why they think so.
You're views are often not your own, its easy to get get conditioned into feeling and thinking in ways.
Nearly everyone masturbates yet so few will admit it....because its deemed unacceptable.
You all do it but you all hide it....yeah us humans are really on to it!.
Fucked up society raises children with stupid idea's about whats right & wrong.

Blah blah.

[Agrajag]

I'm with Anthony.
In art, you can't avoid nudity (and why would you want to?), and there is a lot of erotic or sexually appealing artwork which is of a high artistic level.
BUT it is in most cases unnecessary for the artistic expression to put a considerable emphasis on the genitalia, or on the "mechanical" sexual act as such.
So maybe the line would be there. No stress on the penis/vagina, no explicit depiction of intercourse. Yet, this is not an easy topic...

[andreasj]

Hmmm. I�ve given some thoughts on this topic since yesterday. Interesting question that got me wondering about where I as an artist draw the line and so forth.

I can totally relate to what wienerbot said in his posting above. However one must ask, is this the forum for that? When I registered here at Sijun I saw a great opportunity to get my drawings and paintings valued (note: english is not my native tongue - i�m not sure "valued" is a proper word here) by other artists and through that process become a better artist myself.

Better? Well, I tend to think you can look at development as an artist in two ways (and therefore two purposes for posting art on a forum).
1) The technical side. That is what I have enjoyed here at Sijun, views on my postings as well as others, like "is this composition right?", "what about this rendering?" etc.
2) Motivations and more general directions. Every painter seeks his own expression, right? So one clear purpose for posting is to invite a discussion that can lead closer to that divine goal.

I clearly think of Sijun as a forum solely devoted to "purpose 1". I don�t say it is, just that this is my perception of sijun.

Bottomline: I think that if the purpose of posting here is to explore ones drives and urges, one should reconsider.

Then again, in the end it�s all up to the moderators anyway.

[gArGOyLe^]

hmm.. I think any thing should go as long as there is a warning..

[Gimbal8]

Surely someone knows of some erotic art furoms for stuff like this. Anybody? It isn't some big dark secret is it?

I am just not willing to believe that nobody knows of a decent erotic art forum. Come on you prudes, cough it up.

[Sumaleth]

Re Warnings; warnings don't stop people looking at images, dont stop people being annoyed if it's something they dont find to their taste. In fact, I've probably only looked at a dozen thread titles in the last 6 months, I just open em up 10 at a time.

Re Apocalypse Now; that cow scene at the end is probably the most disturbing thing I've come across in film. It's probably been 8 years since I saw that film, and to this day that is the only scene I really remember. I still wonder if it was real. (I figure it probably was which is why it was disturbing, if I knew it was a special effect I don't think I'd have any trouble with it.)

Row.

[xino]

Sumaleth: That scene was VERY real...no special effects could do that..it was moving when the "stuff" happened....animatronics today can barely do what it did back then

I do believe this movie in particular was the sole reason for the SPCA becoming involved in every American made film since then...if you watch the end of a movie (that had animals in it) it says "No animals were harmed in any way ...yadda yadda yadda..."

they HAVE to have people from these groups there to make sure no one mistreats these animals otherwise the movie doesn't pass the grade....

very disturbing but on a positive note nothing like that can be done any longer....so unfortunately I believe it was an necessary evil

[Gimbal8]

And speaking of of sex and animals...

[HawkOne]

I agree with fuel_99 and Gimbal8 here.

I also think that RABATs image is completely OK because it is actually a nice piece of art showing obvious skill; where as wienerbots image was just the opposite, a pointless / pathetic excuse to "feel up a babe using the mouse" showing little artistic/technical skill whatsoever.

There was a related thread to this one a while back, when Ashcroft decided to cover up the Department of Justice "mascot" Justice.

It seems that a classical work of art (Greco/Roman sculpture) is too daring for modern day USA by depicting a woman in toga showing one breast !!!

Ben Barkers post triggered some interesting responses, and I made a suggestion based on US laws to have firm guidelines instead of moderators having the difficult job of deciding what some scream bloody murder about and others think is art ...

The link is here :

Topic: Ashcroft mistakes nude for naked

Now below are some guideline/law suggestions, let it be clear that these are only suggestions, and it would make sense to define it together to make the moderators job easier, and to eliminate differing judgements on different days from the moderators on what is wrong and what is right. This is after all why there are laws in the first place, to ensure consistency and to avoid misinterpretations and misjudgements.

If you find images depicting toasters disturbing, well, let's put that on the list too ... ( or maybe not ) heheh

Here is what I suggested as guidelines: (slightly modified)
-------------------------------------------
Suggested guidelines for justified censorship of imagery displayed on the Sijun boards.

-------------------------------------------
Guidelines for images displaying sexually explicit conduct, actual or simulated
(A) explicit sexual intercourse, focusing on genitals, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex;
(B) bestiality;
(C) masturbation;
(D) sadistic or masochistic abuse; or
(E) lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of any person

Endorsement of Violence ???
(A) rape
(B) murder
(C) ??? (whatever)

Endorsement of Drug Abuse ???
(A) heroin
(B) peanut butter
(C) ??? (whatever)
----------------------------------


Well since this topic came up again, I thought I would mention this again ...

Since the server is in Seattle, why not base the guidelines on the laws of that state ..?


Oh well ... wishful thinking I guess ...


US thinking scares me in its backwardness in the sexuality acceptance area, where depicting rape/murder is less shocking than Stanley Kubricks film Eyes Wide Shut where scenes were cut for showing in the USA.

And we're supposed to be in the space age now ... Arabs are hiding their women under burkas and Ashcroft is hiding classical sculptures ...



[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[roundeye]

hawkone, i love you but, space age? we havent even actually been to the moon yet, let alone explored the hollow center of the earth.

i think sijun should only censor ugly pictures made by ugly people who speak only ugly words and think only ugly thoughts.

[HawkOne]

Roundeye, I love you too man, but are you one of those who think the Apollo program was a hoax too ?? hehehe ...

The hollow center of the earth has been explored too hundreds of years ago, just read these books :
Under-Ground by Ludwig Baron von Holberg (1741)
Journey to the Centre of the Earth by Jules Verne (1863)

Have a look at this link if you don't believe me, but remember to turn up you midi sound, so you can fully enjoy all those fantastic blips and blops ...
OurHollowEarth
Hollow Earth Theory

(hey this shit is pretty inspiring, I feel a journey to the centre of the earth picture brewing ... )

As for your suggestion, does an offender have to break one, or all of your suggested "ugly-rules" ?
Posters would have to post images of themselves too ... to be judged by ... ummm ... Madeleine Allbright ??



[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: HawkOne ]

[wienerbot]

quote

Quote:

warnings don't stop people looking at images, dont stop people being annoyed if it's something they dont find to their taste.

Well, if the internet has taught us anything it's that nothing will stop people from looking at images or being annoyed. These are two things humans will do until the end of time, except in the context of a forum where a mod has that ultimate power. I said it before, I support your right to run this place as you like it.
Now, in the interest of those who have slightly warmer blood coursing through our veins, would it be completely out of the question to set aside a special section with password entry to grown ups that are interested in submitting, viewing and commenting on such work? You could employ a mod that has the stomache for the job and cater to a broader community beside the one claiming moral high ground. Just an idea, its your show of course. I do think that it is an interesting question though, which responsiblity do we take more seriously... the responsibility to cater to the delicate sensibilities of a nation full of people that have become something akin to toothless milktoast lap dogs, or do we favor the responsibility of defending the rights of even the smallest minorities with the idea that consciously and willfully ensuring a place for them ensures a place for anyone thereby adding life and vigour to any conversation be it national democracy or digital art forum?