[strata]

I am definately having a burger for dinner tonight.

on with the discussion =)

[Sedone]

Josie Maran is yummy. Almost as yummy as that burger.

Good grief, fleabrain, zoom out will ya?! I can see your fillings fer crying out loud.

If you are going to trace, at least make sure you have the ability to draw on your own. There's nothing more embarassing than looking through some guy's portfolio and seeing a few impeccably drawn, photo-realistic pictures, followed by a bunch of horse poo.

[eyewoo]

Sedone... fillings..? howsa'bout the nose hairs... oh, what we tracers must endure to defend our artwork!!!

[BooMSticK]

well said Sedone...

And yes, Flea - I fist paid attention to your nosehair... lol GREAT angle! lol
,Boom

[silber]

eeeeek nosehair!-That's worser than porn

Thanks for starting out this thread fleabrain
some good points here, personally my opinion would match with joachims.Though I have never traced before I definitly will try out working with photo reference in the future to check out the difference and possibilities
but furthermore to learn something new
as it always is when you start trying something different.

..�hmm is this any english at all what I typed here?

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: silber ]

[pixelPimp]

I can just imagine that poor caveman who invented paint brush, he must have put up with a lot of crap from the 'purists' who probably also believed that using a brush instead of their fingers was 'cheating'.

[pixelPimp]

BTW, I don't 'trace', like Steven says.. it bores me to death.

[eyewoo]

Good caveman analogy pixelPimp...

Bores me too, but it sure is time saving when you paint from reference material.

[vurx]

<disclaimer> I have rather strong opinions about this subject � I don�t meant to offend. </disclaimer>

On tracing

There is a prolific artist in my hometown of Lubbock, TX. I was in awe of his work for years until a friend of mine popped in to his studio and he was tracing from a projector. At that moment I lost all respect for his work. He turned the painting/struggle into a paint by numbers. If you want to create your own coloring book, go ahead, but you will get no respect from me. Anything that makes the process easier is cheating, so tracing is cheating.

If you are going to trace in order to �speed things along� and hang your work next to mine� you should write �This subject was TRACED� at the bottom of the picture. That would make me feel better.

Does the fact that you traced the subject make your work any less meaningful, YES! � To me it does.

Solution: Learn to see the world as it really is, study anatomy and physiology, and practice everyday. Draw from life!

The comment was made that tracing is actually harder than drawing from life � horseshit.

Exception: In the soulless void that is commercial illustration/design trace all you want, time is money after all, isn�t it?

If you have to stop and ask yourself �Am I cheating by tracing this?� you already know the answer to that question. By doing so you aren�t growing or challenging yourself. Without growth, there is death.

The heights by great men reached and kept
were not obtained by sudden flight.
But they, while their companions slept,
were toiling upward in the night.
- Thomas S. Monson


cheese,
-- vurx

[vurx]

You can suck paint up through a straw and spit it onto a canvas, have your dog scratch patterns in colored leather, put worms in pigment and have them squirm around, paint your naked body and wrap yourself in cloth� all to be an artist.

If it is your endeavor to paint a portrait, sit with the model, WORK through the process of getting all your lines and measurements correct, see the subject for what it truly is, exaggerate and redefine areas as you see fit. Walk away form the WORK knowing that �I made this, using my hands and my eyes, I could have used charcoal, water color, pastel or oils. It is all mine.�

To be a decorative artist or a fine artist, none is �more� of an artist, but aesthetically different? � I think so.

That would look really good over my couch,
-- vurx

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: vurx ]

[eyewoo]

vurx,

quote:

---

�I made this, using my hands and my eyes, I could have used charcoal, water color, pastel or oils. It is all mine.�

---

I can say that about every piece I do, whenther I use a tracing technique or not. Every part of the process is mine, from taking initial phots to contoling the final printing.

We work very differently. For instance, I like spending as little time as possible with the sitter. I don't feel a great need to get to know them or their inner self. All I hope for is that I can make my reference photos in a setting that is comfortable and familiar to them... In fact, it is often as much the setting that is having it's portrait painted as the sitter.

[eyewoo]

I think this is a pretty good example of why tracing is cool... This is a picture under development. I should finish it this eveninmg or tomorrow. This isn't a commission... It's done just because I was struck by several things after taking the photos... I loved the expressions, but I was also taken by the way the perspective of the plaid on the couch set off the scene with energy and excitement. The plaid is importrant to the setting... but why spend half a day getting it right when a few minutes of tracing some basic structural lines does the same thing and gets me to the painting, the realization of what I had in mind. At any rate, don't know whether that helps explain it better to those who put down the tracing technique, but there it is...



I'll post the finished picture with details and reference photos when it's done. It'll be called "Sisters."

[eyewoo]

vurx,

I'd hang my traced and untraced stuff side by side without any sense of guilt or that one was less than the other... The problem with putting a little sign saying, "Tracing in Effect," is that most people, as you do, think it is doing art by numbers... and would then dismiss the artwork outright. If tracing, as a small technique in a much larger process, was really understood, I'd have no problem putting up the sign... It's a tool.

I've been on this journey for over 60 years. I don't question all tradition, but I do question tradition that impedes progress. One of the traditions in the artworld has always been, you have to know how to draw freehand before you can be an artist. I have felt that way, but I am beiginning to question just how true that is. There will be world class artists in the future that have never drawn with a pencil or pen on paper... You can quote me on that

I can't wait for my first plein aire computer... a super laptop with 2 gigs of RAM and a battery that will last all day. Won't that be incredible!!! Maybe in a few years, eh!

[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: fleabrain ]

[Malachi Maloney]

This is a topic that will never die.

I've traced before, but it's not a practice I use often. However, I've been accused of tracing/over-painting tons of times. For a while there I thought I wasn't going to be able to post my art anywhere without being ridiculed or accused of tracing. But that's another story entirely.

I remember the moment when I found out that Olivia traces. My opinion of her work didn't change a bit. Because I can obviously see that she is a talented artist by her brush work, use of color, etc.. She does a simple trace over a photo projected over her canvas/board and then afterword she paints it with no assistance from the projector but by simple "eye-balling" her reference as fleabrain does. She adds her own personal style and skills to every painting she does and the fact that she starts with a quick sketch that was traced over a photo does not change or reduce my opinion of her work, or her as an artist. If I where blessed with Olivia's enormous volume of commissions, I would do the same. Because I know I can paint without tracing, I do it all the time. The tracing that artist like Olivia, Rockwell, Elvgren, Struzan, and FLEABRAIN do is simply a way to reduce the time involved in producing a painting. Besides, tracing only helps decrease time during the sketching, you still have to paint it by hand after that.

Anyways.......

Just my 2 cents.

Malachi

[EDIT: Corrected the spelling of fleabrain's name.]

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Malachi Maloney ]

[fuel_99]

good that the only word you wrote in caps was typed wrong.. </sarcasm>

I always feel a very strong urge to say something not so nice when someone takes some artists with totally different backgrounds and tosses them together to make a statement.

[Malachi Maloney]

All those artist I listed may be of different backgrounds (besides Olivia and Elvgren, both of whom are/were pin-up artists). But the one thing that all of those artist have in common is the fact that they all started there paintings with a simple photo trace.

Enough said.

Malachi

[digitalmarker]

Some more thoughts...I don't understand why design/illustrator/commercial work is denigrated as being souless, or somehow being less "art" than "ART". To me, I find art is something emotionally gratifying in some way, whether it expresses sadness, happiness, wonder, or just the "I like this, its a cool <blank> Wow". For me, drawing is about fun, and about the kind of feeling I get when I watch it go from sketch and through the stages to the final thing. Tracing is a start. It gives the basic outlines. How some people think it negates all technical skill is beyond me, since there are tons of people who can't get beyond an intial tracing to produce something new, if they can even trace.

I mean, one could argue that using a model is cheating, because one should be able to use imagination to create something, why do you need to pose someone in a certain way, shouldn't your command of anatomy and movement and technique be SO GOOD that you can do it all in your brain. You might be that good, but its probably easier to use a model to get the exact proportions right or the style of hair, or whatever.

Tracing, likewise, gets me to the part that I like best, which is still capable of modifying an original image, and making it a new one, all my own. I might take parts from here, and parts from there, but I make it into a whole picture. I don't argue that I might not have as great anatomical/draw from life skills as another person, but I like to think that I do add my own twist to a picture/work. And, that to me, is the way I express myself in the art, not from an initial tracing, but via the final product,
or even work in progresses.

This is all my own opinion, but feel free to comment. This thread really opened my eyes to the possibilities.



[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: digitalmarker ]

[Kaete]

Fuel_99, I can understand if you have some kind of problem with tracing. But you're obsession with Fleabrain is just a wee bit... odd.

Really, argue about the value or non-value of tracing. But just targeting Fleabrain and complaining about him weakens your arguments and makes them sound petty.

As for the tracing/cheating argument: I really don't know.

When I was younger, I thought sketching the rough body-structure beneath portraits was cheating! Then I finally took a life-drawing class and realized how helpful I can be.

Man, I was such a superior little "artiste" as a kid. I think it's because I grew up in an art school. Fortunately, I've grown up a bit and realized there's more to art than I thought.

[fuel_99]

Kaete:
who started this thread? right.
so whom should I address when I write my opinion (and its nothing else than that)?

don't know where you found that obsession part in there either.

[eyewoo]

quote

Quote:

Tracing, likewise, gets me to the part that I like best, which is still capable of modifying an original image, and making it a new one, all my own

Yeah, digitalmarker... that's just about got it in a nutshell. Add the part about "time is money," and that pretty well wraps it up... (pardon all the cliche's )

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: fleabrain ]

[violentwoobie]

Hello all, as you can see I'm new to these boards. If I can throw my 2 cents in...

I've always struggled with this question until I had the oportunity to talk with a well known artist who uses an opaque projector in his art work. I asked him "Isn't that cheating?" he told me "No, not by anymeans, because although anyone can 'trace' it takes skill to 'fill in the blanks'. You still have to understand the concepts of shading, detail and style.
He also mentions that it boils down to time is money.

So personally if the artist is comfortable, I'm all for it.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: violentwoobie ]

[Flexible Elf]

I would say in the business sense, tracing has to be a viable tool. I've had some 30 minute turnarounds on logos and vectored graphics at my job that I've had to use photos as templates for in Illustrator (which is more or less tracing).

However, I can't bring myself trace for my own stuff or freelance though, I wouldn't go as far as to say it's cheating, but for me it's skipping a valuable step IMO. Sometimes when I use even a smidge of photoreference I feel quilty.

To each his/her own. Most of the time it's all about the client anyway.

-Flexible Elf

[Bomu]

Nice thread- Just sat here hours reading it all! I'd like to be drawing instead, but I can't right now without tracing *lol*
---
Tracing is something I do from time to time but my opinions on the matter never stay the same. Sometimes- like today in fact, I simply couldn't come up with any ideas of my own but I really want to draw something! Ever feel like that? As soon as I put pencil to paper I noticed nothing decent was comming out.. I tried copying a photo pose, but couldn't even do that right! So I've decided I'll have to resort to tracing a pose. At the moment I feel it's the only way I can produce a quality result that I'll be pleased with, since I have very high expectations.. However last week I was drawing really good stuff with very little reference at all! I don't understand it

The bad thing is, I feel guilty if I don't mention I traced an image, but also feel I can't admit it when I do! I don't want other people thinking, "all he can do is trace" if I mention it. I can draw without, but not as often as I'd like. Is this the case with anyone else? ...Other people's opinions really matter- where would art be without critics and other's opinions??

There's also the matter of me (and probably everyone else here) wanting to improve. As was mentioned, I'm worried that tracing will hinder my progress in the long run, compared to someone that copies via the eye. I wonder if that's true..

btw, I agree with Steven Stahlberg's comments about reference/trace material (if you don't have a camera, model or location!). It is boring and takes longer (for me). I think the only fun bits are adding details not included in the original photo and generally the final result.

btw2, Fleabrain- that burger looked more like it was attacking you rather than you eatting it!

[eyewoo]

Bomu... Nice post. I'd like to react to it by saying, IMO, tracing is a process tool, not an end result and not a substitute for freehand drawing. If it helps you to learn about drawing, then do it. If it helps you save time then do it. But don't feel guilty about it and don't try to hide the fact that you do it.

If you're a artist with a keen eye and good sense of composition, then the end result will show that. If your a bad artist, then no amount of tracing will hide that fact.