[DarkStarAngel]

I decided i wanted to do some matte painting for my 3D animation.
I'm an advanced photoshop user and can make about anything i want.
But.....there's a big but...
It's called matte painting right?
So i'll try to explain what's bothering me.
A few days ago i saw somewhere on the net a full resolution matte painting.
I could litteratly see the strokes the artist made,(it was about 8000*3000 or something)
That matte painting wasn't from Graig Mullins.
It was from another artist, but i can't recall his name.
It was done in Photoshop, no doubts there.
So, i checked out his style and the way he draws his lines, very painterish, very artistic.
In full ress it looked like a photoshop painting, but in 800*600 view it looked like a background from a expensive special effects movie.
Now here's the thing, i can do that too in photoshop, but not the way with those strokes, when i try that i use a mix of styles, lots of masks, air-brushes and so on.
But, when looking at that high res matte painting from that guy, i saw he didn't use any of the tools i do.
He only used brushes, that's it, brushes, no smudge, no blur, no nothing, just plain straight standard brushes from photoshop.
So i asked myself, i get the same effect as he does, but in a different way.
So here's the big question; When i do it my way, am i actually matte painting?
The way i do it you can hardly call it "Painting".
I can switch styles and do it the way that guy did, but as soon as i touch the smudge tool, or anything else that is NOT a brush, i feel like i'm cheating and not really matte painting, because i never see those tools used in the work of other matte painters.(or am i wrong?)
So am i matte painting if i do it my way or not?
Does it specifically have to be done with brushes only?
Do those pro matte painters actually use masks, smudge, blur or such things?

Ok that was question 1, now.......
It's still about matte painting.
When i have a concept worked out and drawn and did all the work before i start "matte painting"
I collect huge amounts of reference, i take my camera out and shoot pictures all over the place, or search on the internet for reference.
Last time i wanted to do a metal cilindrical object, i drew it myself.
But when "matte painting" that object i just couldn't get the lighting,color,shading right.
So what i did was i look for a metal cilindrical object on the net, i eyedropped the colors of it in order to get the right RGB values i needed to get the right shading, so i didn't pick the colors myself, or imagined the shading myself, but i copied the shading(not the object!)and a little bit of it's material structure, by getting the rgb values of my reference picture.
That metal cilinder was actually a very small part of the entire painting, but this worked well and i was able to get my shading right, so i did it on more objects(40% of about all that was in the painting).
So eventually i actually stole the shading of many reference objects in order to get my objects looking right.
I feel like i stole those colors and was cheating, they aren't hand picked by me.
Is a matte painter allowed to do that?
Do more matte painters do it like that?
Or do they hand pick the color from their imagination?
Same with structure and color.

I know this sounds a bit stupid, but i want to do this right, i have my own way of getting around things, but i feel like it's not mine when only getting inspired by reference.
Even though i do it like i do, i want to learn it from the pro's, still they are alot better than me, i can get stuff looking good to a certain degree, but most of the times not as good as Graig Mullins or his colleges.
I know i know......., they're the masters and stuff, but that doesn't stop me from learning it their way and not with my fuilthy little tricks.

Phew, bleeding fingers from typing, i hope someone understands what i mean, otherwise i look like i'm crazy or something



[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: DarkStarAngel ]

[Ian Jones]

Some ppl wont respect you for those particular methods, however it is generally understood especially in Sijun, that however you make a pic, it is the final output that really matters, this is especially true when you take 'shortcuts' to speed up production or meet deadlines, such as generating perspective guides in a 3d program. In the end it is the outcome that matters the most.

I think you will learn more if you do it the painting way. Consequently you will be able to invent objects and scene's a lot more easily without reference.

'Stealing' colours is generally a bad idea, because photo's are often taken with artificial light aids such as a flash, or a lighting rig. This means the subject in the photograph will be badly lit from an artists point of view. It won't match the environment very well, and you'll tend to get some strange shading. Painting from life is always best.

We really need to see one of your matte paintings to be able to judge wether you are as good as you make yourself sound. (sorry I worded that badly, I'm not trying to make you sound egotistical.)

[Malachi Maloney]

What I don't understand is why you're looking for others to tell you what's "right" and what's "wrong" about YOUR art. If you were looking for a critique on a specific painting I would understand your question, but your "style" as a whole is something you should develop on your own. I don't see anything wrong with sampling your colors from a reference photo. You still had to paint the image yourself right? So why does it matter where you got your colors from? I know a great artist who just so happens to be red/green color blind, he samples colors all the time to make sure they're the right tone, hue, etc. And I don't think any less of his work because of it. Nor, do I think less of a non color blind person for color sampling. I mean really, what's the big deal here? I doesn't matter what tools your using either. Blur, smudge, lasso, etc., are "tools" that (I'm assuming) are a big part of why you bought Photoshop in the first place. That's why I think a lot of "traditional" painters switch to a digital format like PS. It's because Photoshop is a much more powerful and convenient tool to use than most traditional methods. That's why I use it.
Those "tools" are there for your disposal, you'd be a fool not to take full advantage of them.
Also, I don't know his web address off the back of my hand........But, "Loki" is an awesome matte painter and I know for a fact that he uses tools like blur and masking (Because he says so on his site ).
If someone could provide you with that site address it would be way cool.

Anyway......What I'm trying to say here, is that what's really important is the final product you produce. Not the steps you took to get there.

Just my 2 cents.

Malachi

[Socar MYLES]

My take on this is very simplistic, and can be summed up in one sentence:

If it looks good and people are giving you money for it, you're doing it right.

[BooMSticK]

yup, i second that... Whatever gets the job done...
,boom

[Naz]

I think when doing art it counts that the product is somethin new and different - how you finish the project, what tools you use, that is up to the artist himelsf.
and definately, when you have tools that enabel you to visualize what you imagined faster, then sure: use them

Malachi Maloney: the url is - http://www.vigilante.net/~loki/

and an interesting old skool interview http://www.inode.at/reebok/surprise/history.html

[don perkins]

DarkStarAngel-the only reason you should change the way you do something is because you want to explore a new/different style of working, not because someone may think it's right or wrong.
I'm trying to use different brushes now-hard edged paintbrush, not the airbrush, 'cause I want a certain look that I can't get with the airbrush and smudge tool.
I make money painting the way I do, it's fast, people seem to like it, and it works for me-I'm from a traditional background.
Also, sampling colors- as long as you like the colors in a photo, use them. I take my own photos for color reference because I'm color blind and it takes me forever to make my own colors (and I have to have someone check them first. I have a really cool airbrushed watercolor of a green female warrior-but she's not supposed to be green...learned my lesson on that one)
anyway, use what works for you, unless you have a certain look which dictates certain tools. They're tools, that's all they are-You are the artist.

[Ian Jones]

Malachi Monkey: You can have problems with picking colours from a photo.

Let me clarify that a bit more. Picking a HUE from a photo, is probably ok, but due to the flash or artificial light of a flash, a lot of photo's have incorrect shading, so picking shading or TONE and SATURATION from a photo can be a bad idea. I suppose it would really only be a bad idea if you were doing a 'paint-over', because you may be reconstructing an incorrectly lit scene, and thus damaging your understanding of FORM.

I hope that makes sense, can anyone back me up on this?

[Malachi Maloney]

Ian JackArsh~ (Don't miss spell my name, I won't miss spell yours. Very childish, really.)
I understand what you're saying. However, I'm assuming he's not sampling every single color used in his paintings from photos. Of course hue, tone and saturation of his colors will have to be mixed and adjusted during the painting process. I'm simply saying that I don't see anything "wrong" with what he's doing. I'm not directly advising him to sample his colors. But, if it speeds up his working process to grab a color here and there from a photo, I see no problem there. As a matter of fact I think it's a good idea.
You're right about the saturation of photos though. Usually after a photo is scanned and brought into Photoshop it tends to loose some saturation in the process. Simple problem to solve really, just resaturate it a little.

Still, I see nothing wrong with what he's doing.

Malachi Maloney

[Blind]

My opinion: Keep doing what you're doing. You use some pretty inventive ways to help you learn. There's nothing wrong with that. If you sample enough cylinders like the one you mention, eventually you won't have to, see? I'm not sure if that's a goal, but it's bound to happen through repetition. Don't let anyone tell you what's right and what's wrong when it comes to your style. Of course it's wrong to to steal outright, but I don't think that's what you're doing.

[Ian Jones]

Malachi Maloney: Sorry I didnt mean to spell your name like that I only glanced at it and it sounded right, plus there are other 'monkey' names at Sijun. Was just a mistake. The 'childish' thing is that you needed to make fun of me...

I am not criticising his method, merely pointing out that SHADING / TONE in photos MAYBE wrong due to the use of a flash, because it artificially casts light and creates shadows that are inconsistent with the surrounding environment.

In any case, read my post more carefully next time! (and yes I will be more careful with my spelling)

[BooMSticK]

yes, flash can give odd colors... but who are you too say that those 'new' colors will not be of use? Those 'off' colors might look right if used for a certain projekt...
What I think you have in mind is that using a reference photo that was done with a straight-on flash will often look wierd when replicated in a painting. It will scream reference-used, so to speak... But picking colors from a flash-photo is a totally other thing...
,boom

[Ian Jones]

OMFG! Is anyone else going to read my posts incorrectly? any offers?

BooMSticK: Yes I agree with what you said. That is exactly what I just said myself!

I never said it was wrong to sample colours. I said it MAYBE wrong to sample SHADING / TONE from a photograph due to the artifical light of a flash. It would be ok to sample individual areas and make decisions upon your artwork as to where those samples should go for correct lighting, but it MAYBE wrong to sample entire areas, and duplicate or clone / paintover... because you would be copying the lighting from the photograph, which could possibly have incorrect lighting.

I hope that clears it up.

[BooMSticK]

ian - if that was what you meant in the first place - then I'm really sorry! (gonna get my school money back... Those english lessons never did any good, it seems...)
,boom

[Malachi Maloney]

It's all good Ian. We're all just having a friendly conversation here.

M