[aquamire]

Seems to be quite a bit of color theory floating around in the discussion forums, which is good to see.

I have a question referring to the topic. What influences the colors of highlights and body shadows? Is the highlight usually the color of the light hitting the surface itself? Does it depend on the material/texture? I know that if I color the highlight of an object, then switch to the opposite temperature of the light, I can make it appear very bright, but I dont know when to apply this. Also with body shadows, does the color depend on the surface material/texture as well?

Any body care to elaborate or extend these questions? I think it might be worth discussion, if it hasn't been hashed to death already.

[Jason Manley]

ok...Ill give this a shot...I can only tell you how I have observed things and how I apply these observations as formulas for painting.

your mass light (largest light shape) can often be the local color of the object that is pushed toward the temperature and intensity of the light itself...the shadow mass will be a proportional opposite temperature to the light (i.e...the warmer the light the cooler the shadow..the more neutral the light the more neutral the shadow etc..)

example of opposite temperature and compliment color in light vs shadows in justin sweets work (I could find this on old master stuff as well...particularily 19th century art as most color theory was developed by the impressionists and academics) http://www.justinsweet.com/painting12.html

now the trick here seems to be to use a spectrum of color or "color variation" (see the thread titled color theory) in the masses of light that directly relate to the light temperature and to the local color. If I am painting a blue ball under a warm light then I will put colors of blue that are moved toward the light color and temperature and at the same time keep in mind the value and local color that I want the object to look like....if i push too far toward the light color then it would suggest more of a reflective object and less of the local color. I will have blues..violets..greens etc...within the large field of light on this blue ball. I often do this for every shape of value. On the shadow side I do the same thing...I simply move the shadow color to the opposite temperature and color (if the light is on the cool side of red violet then my shadows will be pushed toward warm side of yellow green)...this is not including reflect light from other objects or surfaces yet.

here is an example of a more neutral light and shadow system that is less seperated by temperature but is still seperated by color mass. http://www.justinsweet.com/concepts22.html

the highlight will have parts of color in it that illustrate the color of the light..they are often not just one color...and thus even a bit of color variation and placement of compliments of the same value can help them to glow...the same goes for core shadows.

I let either the light or the shadows be dominant in temperature or color often times as well...too much of both can be grating on the eyes.

reflect light works in the same ways...there will always be a spectrum of color in it even if it is from an orange ball..the reflect light will not just be orangish..it will have greener orange..yellow orange...violet orangish colors as well..

I will add some more things to this as I think of them...

if you have any questions...feel free to ask...any arguments as well.

the most important part to me..it seems..is the transitions in color through the value scale on the object itself...I have my own ideas but I ask you how might this be approached?

here is an example of color transition...notice the change in light color intensity as well as shadow color intensity as the light falls away from the focal area in the main part of the light source..notice how it shifts from a cool light warm shadow system to a more neutral shadow system as the light moves away from the source. I guess you could call this temperature and intensity falloff (used to make the eye focus on parts of the image at the color crescendo). http://www.justinsweet.com/concepts20.html

jason manley

[Jason Manley]

I figured it would be appropriate to show some examples of where justin sweet gets his color knowledge from. the same places you all should be...the masters.

LOOK AT MORE OLD MASTER STUFF PERIOD!

within thier works are solutions to the problems you are having and to the ones you are AWARE OF.
http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/v/Velasquez_Diego/large/Velasquez1.jpg
http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/v/Vermeer_Johannes/large/The_Procuress.jp

and
www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/v/Velasquez/large/The_forge_of_Vulcan_EUR.jpg

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Jason Manley ]

[aquamire]

Wow, what a response. Thank you very much Mr. Manley, it was exactly what I needed to know! Your right,I really should look at the old masters works, but I never know which ones might offer the best 'advice'. Guess I should brush up a bit more on my art history, eh? Think I'll do that next time I hit the library.

Thanks again for the great information, I'll get right to work analyzing what you've said and trying it out. Hopefully some new questions will arise and some answers.

[aquamire]

Alright, I have some questions and I hope you have the time (or someone else does) to help me out.

First of all, I noticed that for me its very difficult to change the temperature even slightly and maintain the same value.. you either have to lower the intensity of the hue or increase it, and even then its very tricky. Am I right on this? I have a very hard time 'guestimating' how much.

Secondly, it occured to me this would be easier to do if you could actually mix colors digitally like you would with traditional media, but thats impossible since computers use additive mixing and everytime you mix a color it gets lighter. You cant even follow the same mixing rules. (after reading Blue and Yellow Dont Make Green, I was totally lost in translating it all to digital, and discovered that just doesnt work.)

How on earth do you work with a limited palette digitally when color mixing is so restricted? It just seems wrong to have to go into the color picker everytime to select a color, and even wronger to expect to control values that way.

Any help on this? I understand what you've said so far Jason, but it's definately unearthed some more 'primitive' questions.

[Jason Manley]

The problems you are having are only coming from not doing it enough. You can change temperature and keep the values the same...you can change intensity and keep the values the same..you really just have to use your eyes and your judgment.

use your visual judgement....it is difficult at first as it can all be so subtle...sometimes changes in temperature and intensity can fool your eyes and leave you confused (me too) as to what value things are...but if you have the mindset that you have to do whatever it takes to get it right then you will. If that means using the color picker and or selecting you colors by hand then do so...

You can use a limited pallette in painter very easily...simply pull the color wheel to an earthy orange range and use the gray for blue...the orange for orange...the gray with orange as greenish...etc...if you need a red simply slide the wheel a bit til you get a slightly more earthy red and then use that. its all about keeping the wheel in a limited range and using the grays as colors...it works...take a look at www.justinsweet.com he does it a LOT.

Im not sure how I would handle it in photoshop...I never start my pics in photoshop..the wheel is simply not interactive enough for me. it feels clumsy.

IF YOU KNOW WHAT THE POSSIBLE COLOR MIXTURES ARE FROM A LIMITED PALETTE THEN YOU CAN USE THEM DIGITALLY.

if you do need to memorize what colors to use for a limited palette follow this traditional excersize.

take these four colors (indian red, burnt sienna, ivory black, and yellow ochre) and do mixture charts. You will also need titanium white or flake white.

1 mix each color with every other color to a visual 50/50 mixture. Make a three or four step value scale down to white with each mixture. (yes I know this is a lot of work..but it will pay off..trust me)

2 mix each mixture to a 75/25 percent split and a 25/75 percent split and do the value scale to white.

DO THIS FOR EVERY COLOR ON THAT FIVE COLOR LIST.

what mixtures make nice greens (relatively)

what mixtures make nice warms?

what mixtures make nice cools?

What is your coolest mixture?

what is your darkest mixture?

what is your most intense mixture?

what is your most....

best of luck

jason

ps..yes I did this for many hours in the beginning. I had two different mentors make me do it...yikes! boring...but relaxing..and its good for your color mixing skills too.