[immi]

Hey guys

Need a little help here, as I'm in a bit of a bind and feeling extremely frustrated. Sure, more than a handful of you have been through this yourself, and I was just wondering what my options were.

A few months ago (17 Feb to be exact) I was contacted (through running 3D Palette) by a guy representing a wrestling site who wanted an illustration done. I checked out the site and it seemed to be fairly reputable, so over a series of emails (and through talking with the illustrator John Liberto), we agreed upon a price of $400 for the illustration. John would then take 350 of this.

You can see the final illustration (the spikes were removed but I don't have the pic) and the link to the site that it was done for here: http://www.3dpalette.org/images/wrest.htm

Ok, so John Liberto (you probably know him as the awesome Captain Flushgarden) completed the illustration within about a week, and I sent it off to the guy, and he seemd very pleased with it (and said the wrestling site was too.) About a couple of weeks later, the illustration went up as part of the new site design. They didn't use the whole picture, but I was told they are going to be using it later for T-shirts etc.

I received the first payment for $200 late, but the important thing is I got it. However, the 2nd payment I never received. After months of promising it "soon" the guy has now stopped replying to emails. Eventually, last week, I just sent him an email saying something to the effect of "pay up soon, or i'll pursue further action. In the meantime, please remove the illustration from the site."

I didn't receive any reply from my contact, but I then got an email from the owner of the site, saying to call him at so and so number. I gave him a call and basically he said he wasn't going to take the illustration down saying he had trademarked it, and that it was his now blah blah blah, and that he ran a million dollar company, and basically just fed me a load of bullshit.

My question now is what can I do? My main concern is getting Capt Flushgarden his remaining money, but at this point it doesn't look like the guy is going to pay. Still, at the very least, I want the illustration taken down. The guy was such an asshole on the phone, I really want to rip his throat out.

Anybody got any ideas? Again, heres the pic, and link: http://www.3dpalette.org/images/wrest.htm

[Etah D'Te]

Damn right, go legal! He's definateley expecting you to just back down, he probably pulls this stunt all the time. There's a chance just serving him the order to appear in court will make him realise you're serious, he may settle straight then and there. Besides if this tosser has millions to fling around he'd rather pay you to stop hassling him rather than run the risk of losing more in a court battle! By the sounds of it you've got your side covered (with all the e-mails) so if you go to court you'd win, if you don't you won't. But hey thats just me and my anti-fatcat propaganda.

[Capt.FlushGarden]

Immi! Don't worry man!I'm not the "gimmimymoneynow" kinda guy! I just hope you get a clean shot at this asshole with a big gun or something hihi...Can't you sue him and, uhm, get like alot of money?? If you can squeeze a million bucks outa him I want 40% u understand? hehehe

[spooge demon]

Immi, you need to go to small claims, it will be open and shut, judgment to plaintiff, yada yada. Venue might be a complication.

Collecting will be your problem. You need bank account numbers. How to get them is the problem.

I had your problem exactly once. I had a devious friend call up Mr. Jackass (people like this never answer their phones-you have to coax them out with carrots whilst hiding the stick) and say, � we are on a short leash here to get a promotional campaign going for our new flabcycle 2000 wonderbike. We want you to start on the promotional campaign right away, no time to loose. I can wire the money directly your�.� And we got em

[Vesuvius]

http://www.iowrestling.com/cgi-bin/discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=1
their fan forum, feel free to enlighten their audience (beware of popups)

[StrangeFate]

That sucks immi.

For sure the pic is yours ...or Flushgarden's intellectual property, that other guy can't (c) it.

If he had a multmillion bizz then he wouldn't mind paying the other 200 bucks, sounds all like BS to me. GUess he's just assuming that you'll give up that way.

What you sure can do is send an email to his host telling that he's using illegal stolen content and he'll most probably get banned.
When he gets a new host, do the same again, blah.

In the worst case you still can put an army together to endlessly spam his forum

Digital art copyright info

[immi]

Ok thanks guys.

Well, I heard back from the guy. It seems like he's sort of in the same situation as me...that is, he's waiting for the guy who runs IOWrestling to pay his a substantial amount of money for various services, so that he in turn can pay me. He promises me he will pay the remaining money owed.

My question now though is to do with the site Innovators of Wrestling. Assuming, I receive the money from this guy, does IOWrestling now own the copyright? Also, can they trademark this character? I mean if they start producing stuff with the character on it...do we have any claim to a share?

I'm all riled up now about this site. I tried to be very polite when I called the owner of the site, but he was such a dick, I really just want to stick it to him especially if they've trademarked the character already. I'm pretty sure he's full of bullshit about the size of his business etc etc, but on the off chance he's not...

Oh yeah, Captain, how about 10%?

[ May 13, 2001: Message edited by: immi ]

[Blitz]

Id also make sure this guy dosnt have any Mafia ties...so he dosnt go to his boys and say...I have a small fly for you to turminate..hehe

GOOD LUCK IMMI...Im pulln for ya buddy.

OH...and a shout out to Captian....whats up buddy, been a while...

Well Ciao

KICK HIS ASS

[EviLToYLeT]

mmmm..... ok sounds like a bad situation immi. If he did in fact not get paid, why didn't he say so in teh first place?

And second of all, a site with those fucked up banenrs is shit. death to em all!

and also, you should press em for a bit more money for the delay, and then hope you and flushy get money

[waylon]

immi: If you sold them the rights to the image, then it's theirs to copyright and trademark and do whatever they want with. (Otherwise, every logo for every company or product would belong to the original artist, and not the company. Which wouldn't work out too well.)

I don't know how that works out if you haven't been paid yet. I think you granted them the rights to the image as soon as you sent it to them, whether you've been paid or not. Don't take this for gospel, though. I'm pretty sure, but not 100%.

Oh, and great link, StrangeFate.

[starfish]

Yo immi!
head over to guru.com and have a peek at
their Ask an expert page.
there's some pretty useful knowlege in
the Business Management section
and like spooge said, taking him to small
claims court should be the best way of
solving the matter in a few hours =)
hope this help you decide what to do,
and btw, don't fold for the 'i'm also waiting
for money' rhetorical bs.
good luck! =D

[Kaiju]

Did you save the emails and does John have a copy of the original psd file?

[immi]

Yes, have all the emails, and several psds showing the progress and development of the picture.

[Kaiju]

Well that means you should have time stamps galore... while none of them are really official they should suffice. Did any of the parties sign a contract or was all of this done just through emails? If email is the case then he should have to pay up or remove the illustration. It really depends on what YOU can afford to do. Taking legal actions is not cheap, but if you can afford it I would do it. Mr. Millions there is probably not expecting those actions.

[immi]

No contract per see, but it's pretty clear from the emails that there was an agreement over the sum to be paid.

Anybody else?

[Rinaldo]

I think that you need to specify (usuialy through a contract) what you are actuialy selling. The way I understand it to work is that you can sell them the rights to an image or character compleatly so that they own it. or you can give them the rights to do only particualr things with it. for instance they pay the 800 bucks to use it on their web site. if they want to use it as part of a telivision promotion they have to pay for that as well (which would probably be a lmuch larger sum). the same goes for if they own the rights to the character, as opposed to just the Illustration. but if that isn't specified I'm not sure what happens.

hope it works out for ya both.

[BooMSticK]

Excactly Rinaldo!
And since Immi and the Capt. hasn't got full payment for the picture yet they (the stupid guys) have no claim over the artwork. And it really couldn't (and isn't legally!) be your problem that he has to wait for some other payment to be able to pay you guys - what kinda bullshit is that?!? The small claims court might be the best way right now. Good luck!
,Boom

[jzero]

Hey guys...

My illustration professor used to say that a letter from a legit lawyer is often enough to spur deadbeats into action. It requires almost no effort, and communicates several important messages, i.e. "I'm serious", "I have a lawyer", "I won't back off". Try it.

/jzero

[Awetopsy]

as far as I know a timestamp is something that would be considered legal. If the said emails state a given amount of money to be paid, and the timestamp on your original psds are older than the drawing he has, then legally, if they try to trademark it, you can go after him becasue you can prove that you never recieved full payment, your original files are older than the ones they have (thats incredibly hard to fake) and you are witness to the original artist. there is no way he could fight that.

good luck. I hope it all works out tho.

[preston]

*gasp* a multimillion dollar corporation with a website that has... pop up advertisements! wow, their money must have been spent on the shovels they use to dig into that pile of shit, because hosting wasn't a very large concern for them.

[Collosimo]

I would suggest that you take a screenshot of their site, so that you can prove that they illegally used your pic..

Is the illustration in question... the pic on the top left of their main page? with the tatoo and glasses?

[ May 15, 2001: Message edited by: Collosimo ]

[TheMilkMan]

Immi im sorry there is nothing you can do my freind. It will cost you more money to get the money he owes you. I think you should take your losses...it happens in freelance. I think a lesson has been learned here though. Get your money first always...hey this is the way it works on e-bay and it should be the way an artist works...especially long distance ..I mean make a contract..then do the art...then if it is digital...send the file with about 20 water marks all over it making it unusable..then apone payment send the real deal...that is what I do...good luck!

[Vesuvius]

contact the person you dealt with and tell them that despite you being sympathetic to their position, you made a deal with them and not their employer and it is they who owe you money and they who continue to use your art as a means to make money without yet owning it. tell them that their debt to you is their responsibility to pay and that not paying for artwork which they continue to use against your wishes is practically theft, and that they (whether they like it or not) have to decide to either remove your image at once or to pay you. Their loss of money is something that they agreed to, it is part of purchasing something, and their employer needs to reimburse them, you do not answer to their employer, and you were not made aware of any stipulations to being paid for service rendered beyond providing the art, therefore either they pay you, remove your art, or you WILL seek legal action through either a lawyer who only accepts payment if you win or through the use of nonprofit lawyers (there are a few groups who represent independant artists), be tough and remind them that THEY, not their employer, had a deal that they have to be held to.

[Visigothan]

Immi;

Just some thoughts on this...I've dealt with several issues similar to this before: Being ripped off, and also using on-line evidence to back my case... here's what you can do:

If you take it to small claims court, act as your own attourney. No lawyer fees.
Secondly, copyright this piece w/the U.S. Copyright office _immediately_. Don't delay. It's only $30, and worth every penny of it -- Before you do that though, check with the Trademark office and check to see if he did something with it; If he did, you can nail him for theft of intellectual property.

Secondly, the emails; The emails _are_ admissable as evidence in court; If you get the mail header(s) showing timestamps, message ID stamps, and IP addresses, the ISP can easily prove he sent them.

Just a verbal contract? Not hardly, considering that email is actually _WRITTEN_ -- your contract is now in writing...You're guaranteed the cash...You just gotta knuckle down, be a dick, and rip it from his still warm fingers.

~{V}~

[Vortx]

Just my 2 cents to protect myself:

- clients tell me what they want, i tell them how much...they say okay. Contract signed via fax (i don't trust e-mails...yet)

- I go off drawing...

- After finishing, i send the client a small-lower res pic to prove that the drawing is done. basically, 72 dpi...useless for reproduction or re-printing...

- Once the payment is received, then i send off the bigger res pic...PSD..etc.....=)

of course i don't do this all the time...for bigger clients you know you can trust....no need to annoy them. This is only for smaller or individual clients....

-feng

[Aimok]

This are very good tips.

I am a little concerned, because I am now in exact the same situation and I don`t know if I ever see my money.

@ Immi

I hope u get your money (hm, and me too)

[Vesuvius]

hey- let us know what happens, okay?
also, on a side note, you're not the immi from "lickmysweaty".com are you? (it's a gaming site you perverts)