[the_monkey]

hey i just wrote my history provincal, and one of the questions talked alot about neonazism in germany. so germans on the board, how bad is it? i belive i heard neo nazism is on the rise because of unemployment, a poor democracy and the fact that young germans are sick and tired of hearing about wwII and what germany did wrong. most belive that auchwitz (spelling?) and other gas camps didnt even exist. bah. so whats the truth behind all this?


------------------
Maho: the online Comic

tradgedy is when i cut my finger.
comedy is when i fall down a manhole and die.

[Moonlord]

well I live in Germany.
b/c of unemployment:
unemployment is not only present in Germany but all over the world. the current high numbers are a result of the reunion of west- and eastgermany. though neo nazistic activities are mainly in the east part where many people are unhappy about their new life in a united germany.

poor democracy:
sorry, but I think german democracy is far from being poor. maybe you could explain how you mean that.

young germans are sick and tired of hearing about wwII and what germany did wrong:
I know we have a burden to carry from the older generation but I can't be blamed for what they did. We shouldn't always look back but also look on the world in these days. I agree with everyone who says "those germans were really freaked during WWII" but anyone who projects that on our times is a freak himself.

fact is that most of the younger people including me are really tired of hearing about WWII again and again b/c we get really over-confronted with this topic in school over years. we read lots of books, discuss in several different classes,...


people who dont believe that KZ's like Auschwitz (right spelling existed can come to Germany and visit some. They are still existing to remind us of the past. I can tell you its really horrifying to see what happened to people who were brought to KZs
in those times.


hope I could help you with this.
anyone feel free to correct me or add something that might be of importance.

[[Shizo]]

hah! There were tens of camps like auschwitz, only a retarded person can doubt that. And it's bad with nazism in germany yes.. My friends live there and they had a russian father (about 20 years ago ahah) but they're ocmpletely german.. So they have to put up with racism and nazism every day. It sucks.

------------------
nothing really matters to me

[the_monkey]

maus is a great comic book dealing with auchwitz, its a true story and provides a human look into the concentration camps. its not all GERMAN BAD, USA GOOD. type deal, but it does deal with the subject accuratly.

Moonlord, thanks for your input. by poor democracy i didnt mean finanaicaly but just more along the lines of experiance and sucess. i dont really know what the german government is truly like, so i guess i could have made a false statement, and im sorry if i offended you.
i too, would hate to be constantly reminded of what my ancestors did. hey, i mean, the usa (im in canada, but ill use usa as an example) the usa is no better than any other country, they were racist. they treated blacks like crap. (look at ww2 and vietnam, the use of carpet bomibing, and napalm, yeah they got human life as the main reason for their fighting..) I personally do not blame germans current citizens for what happened, and neither should anyone else. just like no one should blame me for what my ancestors did to slaves.
and yeah, ever since the reunification of germany, i noticed that the ex-communist east hasnt been doing too well.

------------------
Maho: the online Comic

tradgedy is when i cut my finger.
comedy is when i fall down a manhole and die.

[Freddio]

interesting...

[peter]

hi,

regarding neo-nazism in germany: i actually dont know wether there are today more neo-nationalist than say some years ago. for some months until today neo-nazism is a big topic in the medias so there is the impression that we have more ne-nationalists today...

i think only very few, stupid persons deny auschwitz and the other gas camps. the most neo-nationalists are skinheads (especially in the former gdr) with national mind that are racists and hunt foreigners, beggars or punks in the streets. this is a problem of youth, poverty and group pressure.

ciao
peter

------------------
((( www.jzone.de )))

[Nex]

althogh the neo-nazism movement is strong in germany, its a sad thing to say that some very nazistic political ideas come from my country.
To be more exact from once party in my country.

There have been and still will be many discussions about that.
Some are racistic because of their believs but many more because they are just dumb.

Its mostly the group of workers and the socially lower groups that have a very strange relationship to such things.
They work together with foreigners but on the other hand look down on them.
Maybe I am just overly sensitive to that matter but I have heard comments like "This would not have happened under Hitler" or "Hitler would not have allowed that" numerous times from such ppl.
Mostly this is said by frustrated people who are just too ignorant to learn the truth or just plain too stupid.

We have a certain (well known, badly reputated) politican here who was quoted on numerous nazistic comments.
He referred to the concentrantion camps as "punishment" for instance.
Of course such things raise scandals and big protest here, but after all nothing happens-

I could go on and on here but I guess it would not be so interresting to read so in conclusion:

I think we have less neo-nazi violence than germany has (I think its because austrians are just too lazy) but some people here have a pretty alarming state of mind here too [Not the mayority, but I think if such things are already said by a leading politican its all I need to know]

right now things seem to be better however then they were 2 years ago.. so maybe the whole thing has been damped.

I sincerely hope so.

P.S. So dont imagine austrians running around on the streets bullying foreigners.
The ones that are racists are mostly those that make [just?] stupid remarks and dumb comments.

P.P.S. I have been to a concentration camp too in school and this experience changes you.
If any of you have the opportunity to go there- do it.

[This message has been edited by Nex (edited January 31, 2001).]

[Freddio]

ive been..

its just scary.. didnt really change me though

[Bugscratch]

I can't fucking believe it.... I just typed the longest message I ever typed for this board and exactly while trying to send it I get a system crash.
So here I go again.

At the risk of causing a flame war, I will state that in which I firmly believe, which is that there are less racists in Germany today than in the USA or (insert any other country here).
We do not have ethnic ghettos, we do not have widely accepted paramilitary groups, we do not have blacks only / whites only gas stations.
I know there are no official blacks only / whites only gas stations in the US, but you can still feel the racial discrepancies when you're there. During my trip to the US in Summer 2000 we drove around somewhere in the South and we stopped at a gas station to refuel...on driving away I noticed that we had been the only 2 white people among maybe 15 people there. I think some of them also looked at us in a strange way, maybe thinking "WTF are these guys doing here".

It just bothers me to hell when countries like Israel come running to us for the Xth time demanding XX Billion German Marks we supposedly have to pay for all the bad deeds commited by our ancestors. And while their politicians discuss these matters together with our politicians, their military battles it out with some Palaestinians. Who are the racists here ?
The same goes for many other countries. What those countries do not realize is that by demanding endless sums of money from us they only give rise to more and more agression.
Please don't get me wrong here, I know that Hitler and the Nazis were the biggest fucking assholes of the last century, and that we had better repay as many of their debts as possible (not that it were possible to repay lives), but some day there has to be a STOP. If we keep giving away money to other countries at this rate, this will only strengthen nationalist movements in Germany.

Too many foreigners still see us Germans as those dumb, evil, mindless Nazis that we never, repeat NEVER, were. My grandfathers both fought on the German side in WWII and I can assure you that neither of them was ever convinced of Nazi ideology. Maybe some of you have (I hope you have) seen the film "Das Boot". I think seeing this film should be part of every foreign and German pupil's history education, because it shows that we were never all those non thinking non individual people led by the one FUEHRER believing everything he said just like if we were on dope. This film shows that most German soldiers were simply young guys with girlfriends, families, and hopes for the future, while still showing the cruelties performed by both sides of the conflict.

There was always RESISTANCE against the Nazi government in Germany, but after a period of quiet preparation lasting for several years the Nazis had simply acchieved such a high level of power and control that simply standing on the street and saying "I don't like the way Hitler handles things" could have cost you your life. Many Germans died during the time of Nazi reign fighting for freedom and human rights. There were many attempts on Hitlers life during the time he reigned and the bastard was one lucky son of a bitch to survive till the war's end. Most of the attempts on his life failed because of such things like Hitler being on the toilet when the bomb blew up (The bomb thing is my imagination but you get the idea).
It just pisses me off to have an American (gerneralizing here I know) scream "You Nazi" at me or to have a French greet me with the words "Heil Hitler", while those countries don't even manage to control their own racism problems.

Having said all that, I again want to state that I am sorry for all that happened in the name of our people from 1933 to 1945 and I know that Germany will forever be in debt to the victims of the Nazis. I hope that what happened will serve as an example to other countries to never again let a racist movement flourish.
Still, I hope you will understand my strong feelings on this issue.

I could go on and on about this, but what I wrote should suffice to give you an insight into my feelings on the matter. Many other important points have already been stated by other Germans here in this thread.

-bugscratch

------------------
mailto: [email protected]

"Every intelectual has two countries of origin: His own and Syria."
---Syrian Pavillon @ EXPO 2000 ---

[This message has been edited by Bugscratch (edited January 31, 2001).]

[Moonlord]

couldnt have said it better Bugscratch.

though, i dunno about the racist numbers in germany in relation to other countries.

[peter]

i think you cant compare the killing of millions of people with the todays racism in usa, israel or all over the world. its ok to pay money to the survivors of the gas or workings camps and it is a very poor sign that it takes that much time until the money goes to them.

ciao
peter

------------------
((( www.jzone.de )))

[Ben Barker]

I was under the impression that the Germans kept neo-Nazis under pretty tight lock and key. In other words, that shit wasn't tolerated at all. I thought Austria had the bigger Nazi presence, for the reasons that Nex said.

Usually the lower class is the more racist class. That's one of the utilities of racism, after all: you can always put yourself above someone else. For instance, "I might be poor, jobless, and starving, but at least I'm not (black/a jew)". This also means the lower classes look to immigrants and minorites as the cause to their troubles, not their own ineptitude or misfortune. That is where you get the classic "they're stealing our jobs" bullshit.

I had a friend in summer camp one time. He was German, and he said he went to a predominantly Jewish school in Germany. He was always teased, called "the Nazi", etc. Pretty funny considering he was half black.

But anyway, that is the wrong idea. Returning hate with hate doesn't solve anything. And my friend never had anything to do with Nazis in the first place. So it was more like hating someone for no good reason. It was just racism, not reverse racism. He never hated them.
What the hell, are you going to make me pay money to some black guy because white people used to own slaves? My family never even came to the new world until the late 1800s.

Moonlord: I wouldn't say you have to carry any burden. I think the Germans know the lessons of the holocaust better than anyone else. As for people wanting to forget, it will really be a shame when everyone who lived through the holocaust is dead. Then there will be no first hand accounts. Thank god for people like Steven Speilburgh, spending millions documenting hundreds of survivors' stories on film.

[edit]

And another thing. If I was a young German male in the 40's, raised in the 30s, would I have bought into the Nazi propaganda? Would I have fought on the front lines, or maybe even slaughtered Jews?
Hell yes. We are no better than those people. They didn't have horns and a tail, they were just people. We are the product of our environment. Trying to avoid the same circumstances is all we can do.

[This message has been edited by Ben Barker (edited January 31, 2001).]

[[Shizo]]

Nazism is everywhere, it's just called different names.

[shahar2k]

I feel like I have to ask this, but being Israeli I have a diffrent view on the whole palestenians problem (mainly that we bought the land from them, they retaliated, and when the land was declared Israel they started all the wars)
but that being besides the point I tend to strive for a neutral viewpoint, and I understand how people look at what is happening NOW and see how the palestenians are far outmatched by the Israelis, and yet we hold back, while the Israeli army could use real bullets they use rubber ones instead, and concessions made towards the palestenians to give them land back are replied to by nothing but hostility.

however I can't deny that Israelis are extremely prejudice against other races, even the russian immigrants (now 1/6th of the population) recieve treatment as second class citizens, while arabs and ethiopian imigrants (yes we have a LOT of those too) are treated just as badly.

but I Have to ask, why though, and what really makes people think of Israelis from the outside in the same way that you think of the Natzis with their systematic destruction? I mean we aren't killing the palestenians due to our will alone, we fight *BACK* and that's important to realize. if you have ever been in a place in which the enemy resorts to terroristic and suicidal attacks, then you would understand what I am saying.

So what is the reason behind these accusations, what are YOUR reasons..... ?

------------------
Maybe I'm paranoid... maybe it's you!

[Ben Barker]

Actually, in America the media paints Israelis in whatever light most suits our current political standpoint.
Sometimes, you are our only ally in the middle east, defending what is rightfully yours.
Sometimes, you are barbaric aggressors, killing innocent civilians who get "caught in the crossfire".

Personally, I am more inclined to the first situation, since you ARE our only ally in the middle east, and the only country with the balls to take out Sadam Hussein's nuclear weapons factory during the Gulf war.

But now that George W. Bush is president, you can expect more of the second opinion. He thinks we should "let people fight their own wars". Yeah, isolationism. THAT worked. Just ask England about WWII, and see how American isolationism comes off over there.

[Moonlord]

I think most important for all of us is that we don't behave like our ancestors and their ancestors did throughout the whole history of mankind.

As of today most of us have understood that war is in no way adequate to solve any problems.
If someone throws a stone at you don't take a bigger one and throw it back. Instead try to find another way to communicate with other people.
And if that doesn't work you have to keep trying.

For example the german army of today is called "Friedensarmee (something like peace keeping army)" but I think they're going the wrong way by solving problems with the power of weapons. I mean think about those people being killed in war. Most of them have a family and dont want to kill or be killed.

My grandfather was for 3.5 years in russian war captivity in WWII while his parents died in Concentration camps. At the same time my grandmother had to flee out of "Ostpreu�en" with her mother.
And this is only my family's history.
I don't want that anything similar happens again and that's why I can't understand countries starting war again in our days.

Shizo you got the point.

Its not that hard to fight against racism all over the world. You have to stand up and show your opinion. Everyone who doesn't do anything when minorities get humbled or looks away takes a step on the racist side.

[shahar2k]

barker thanks for that vote of confidence, but to correct your history, Israel stayed out of the gulf war for political reasons (it was either us or the US's arab allies.... and well you can make the choice) the nuclear core you talk about occured at a very special time for me , as I was born the exact same day that it happened... June 7th 1981. so, yah we stayed out of the gulf war, (I should know that too, I was at home wearing gas masks in Israel at that time )



------------------
Maybe I'm paranoid... maybe it's you!

[Ben Barker]

Huh, I guess I was thrown a line of BS then, because I remember seeing Israeli jets and hearing about it. Maybe it wasn't in the Gulf War specifically. Let's just say the ongoing "Saddam* is an asshole" conflict that's been happening for decades on and off.

*Saddam? Sadam? Sodom? Who cares, I'm not looking it up.

[Bradford]

bugscratch said it best; the germans of today weren't alive during that time, and a large bulk of the germans that were, were very against the crimes that the nazis commited. i think the same thing can be said for what the early americans did to the slaves, which was wrong, and we have paid for it. history should be studied, not executed as if it still exists.

germany rocks, the people who give that nazi shit about it have no idea what lies in germany, and probly haven't left their own country to begin with.

------------------
[email protected]
icq:3704871

[sacrelicious]

I'm reading about obedience to authority right now. If you ever study sociology or human behavior, you'll realize how disturbingly easy it is to be sucked into the "mob mentality." That's why I prefer not to cast blame; this kind of thing can happen to anyone, anywhere. It's happening right now in countless forms. We humans define ourselves by our environment and our groups; it's "human nature" to simply bow our heads and follow the leader.

------------------
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.

[Bugscratch]

shahar2k, you really have a point here, there is no way that one could compare the things the Nazis did to what happens between Israelis and Palaestinians. But you will certainly agree that both actions, while different in their magnitude, are based on racist ideology. I should have differed a bit clearer on this, I guess.
But I think you will still agree to my main points.

By the way I read an article today in the German magazine "Der Stern" ("The Star") about a book by a Jew soon to be published in Germany. He states that a lot of the money Germany and other European countries paid to help the victims of the Nazi regime did not go to the victims but vanished in the pockets of some high people in some Jewish world organisations.
Also on a side note there's a museum in New York about the Holocaust, but none about Slavery.

-bugscratch

------------------
mailto: [email protected]

"Every intelectual has two countries of origin: His own and Syria."
---Syrian Pavillon @ EXPO 2000 ---

[shahar2k]

bugscratch, you'r right, things are usually never happen for the right reason, jews may have been violated by the Natzi regime during WWII and the Holocaust, but the lashback from the rest of the world requires them to pay Money? what is money really worth compared to 6 million lives lost, and where is that money really going? my grandfather was in a work camp in the holocaust he never saw a bit of money. neither did he want any, it can't bring back his family that died in those camps.

people have a tendancy to want to explain everything in a logical way. even if their actions are not logical.

they'll say that the Oaklahoma bombing was horrible because many children died, and they will raise a memorial to them, while forgetting about the other many more adults who died.

they'll feel sorry for the columbine incident where several white kids were shot to death while completely ignoring the India Earthquake where thousands died. it's a funny thing, but people remember what they can see, and forget what they cannot, and do not want to see.

------------------
Maybe I'm paranoid... maybe it's you!

[Ben Barker]

Funny you mention that Bug, we're building an Underground Railroad museum in Cincinnati right now.
We have closer ties to that than D.C. though. We were a border state, home to Harriet Beacher Stowe, and one of the first northern states on the underground railroad.
Washington D.C. was in a slave state, and slaves toiled in sight of the capitol. Maryland never seceded, but they still had slavery and most (if not all, I don't remember) of the signers of the Constitution owned slaves, includind the man who penned the phrase "All men are created equal".

[seni0r]

most of the things on this thematic was said by other from middle europe.

sacrelicious: have you read the book "the wave" ? it's about a teacher in america who turns a whole class into non-thinkin zombies (just literally) and shows them in the end how easy 'tis was to achieve ...

we should never forget it - but neither be our generation be punished for it.

just my 2p to this thread ...

------------------
... some things just drive me outta my mind ...

[sacrelicious]

seni0r- I never read The Wave, but I did see the TV movie based on it. Very disturbing, to my mind. As I was watching I wasn't sure if the teacher was sticking to his original plan, or if he was being corrupted by his increasing power and influence. For anyone who's read it, The Wave is actually based on a true story. The events therein took place at a high school near where I grew up.

------------------
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals... except the weasel.

[Ian]

If you Haven't seen "Das Boot" then like Bugscratch says go out and rent it now. It's a really great movie. AND! Maus is excellent, it does not portray all Germans as Evil al Americans as GOOD! Bascially the Author (Art Spiegelman) does something really interesting. He portrays the different races as different animals depending on how you would expect them to act or react to their enviornment. For example:
Ethnic/Religous Jews=Mice
Germans=Cats
Americans=Dogs(go figure)
Brits=Fish
French=Frogs(heh)
Swedes=Reindeer
Pigs=Poles

there are loads of other races and stuff you'll notice... the interesting thing about giving races an animal is that almost ALWAYS they will go and act contrary to how YOU as the reader would expect them to. So you see a Cat in an Army Uniform and you think "Ooh bad Nazi what's gunna happen?" and often times Spiegleman will suprise you. It's a fabulous series. Check it out as soon as you can.
===========================================================
and I also I wanted to say that I agree with Bugscratch in that America is fucked. America has the worst Racism, I think of anywhere. Or else why the hell would we have to have bogus shit like Affirmative action. Plus America is still really fucking whitebread. 99% of Corporate America is controlled by WASPs (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) I don't wanna start any religious flame wars or anything. I just think that the states are foobar. There is no diversification whatsoever. Just the simple fact that Americans these days feel the need to flock into communities of people that are somewhat simmilar to them scares me. What it says is that people are just genneraly closed minded and not willing to put themselves in the shoes of others and experience life from another vantage point. LAST COMMENT: Kill you T.V. I don't watch TV I haven't since I was 5 and my parents unplugged the thing. I'm glad they did. The only TV I watch are movies. (rentals and stuff...) I get enough of a dose of idiocy just from people in general. Don't need to come home and watch it.

CLOSING COMMENT: If I offended you in any way I apologize. Just keep in mind that i'm not trying to change YOU. I just want you to know what I believe. If you don't agree with me...fine. THAT IS GOOD. There are too many people these days who agree with everything they here just to fit in or seem cool or just because they want to be liked. Whateva. Peace, out.

Ian

------------------
Sit on my face, and tell me that you LOVE me!

[Ragnarok]

Well, I have some things to say about that against-TV comments:
I don't watch normal channels, I only watch what I get from satellite, and man, there's one channel I really like called Viajar (Travel) made here in Spain which has a lot of different documentaries about all countries in many different ways, from the typical tourist to the lonely traveller who wants to meet local people. Also, good movies, good music (Muzzik- Jazz and classical music), more documentaries, etc.
So, the problem isn't the medium, the problem are the programs we watch.

About social degradation: I've read about it before, I've made my own averiguations and my conclusion is: people has always been quite dumb, because culture isn't common. And young people of other times also saw that problem and complaint. It isn't new, imho.

And a question: Das Boot could be translated as The Brigde? I saw a film called the birgde about some young german boys who wanted to go to the war and what happened. It was b&w and really old.

--Insert here Ian's closing comment--

[raupe]

Ragnarok: "Das Boot" could be translated as ...hm.. well "The Boat" I guess. But in the context of the movie it'll be something like "The Submarine". It's about a german submarine in WWII. The crew is ordered into a kamikaze-like mission. The movie is about how they realize how stupid war is. And it's not b&w.

I guess the movie you are referring to is about WWI and those young guys defending a bridge. The thing there is, that there's absolutely no sense in defending the bridge (don't remember extactly why tho) and those youths die just for the "honor". The movie shows how senseless all this is....

Hope I could help...

[Ragnarok]

thanks raupe
I think I should look for "The submarine" now

[the_monkey]

i love maus, yes it is really really good. but it seemed to present all germans as evil. every encounter with a german was negative. but i donno, the story is true, and the author could have been telling it from a certain bias or whatever.

oh, and about mindless tv viewers, well dont worry what we're going to be like 5 years down the road, cuz we are already mindless tv watching vegetables. we are not progressing. technology isnt making our lives any better, maybe easier, but not better..

------------------
Maho: the online Comic

tradgedy is when i cut my finger.
comedy is when i fall down a manhole and die.