[DeadlySCSI]

Is it just me or is this Forum being degraded by the number of Art "Zealots" (I take Dives and ScOOp as good enough examples) who don't actually contribute anything but moan about "the good old days of the forum" when there wasn't so many "Newbies" (or "Beginners" as some people call themselves) and there weren't so many Posts? What do you think the forum was for in the first place? A wall decoration? It's here to get advice and to show your skills. Sod all this crap about "you're not a true artist unless you can draw <whatever>" or "Why can't you draw this?" or just "it's crap... <end>".

Those people degrade the forum and make it "crap" (and I know I could be accused of the same thing by posting this) because of the above behaviour and the foul stench of "Elitism" which they generate. Additionally, why bother saying that you're going to leave? Just go away quietly.

Anyway. That's my little Rant for tonight.
Dives' posts really aggitated me though.

Another thing... Nationality doesn't mean ANYTHING in this place... Talent and the willingness to learn is EVERYTHING.

<!!!AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!>

I'm alright now...

[Jerry]

maybe they're looking for something deep within the forest of wires. Maybe they seek the next generation of power beyond art. Or they seek the one named Digitart. Or they're just testing our knowledge when they are feed up too. Well I tell you I've got the answer... it's..................RANDOM MUSING

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-KARN- Forever. Die? Never

[RoadMaster]

I agree wih you rstatements, although I disagree with the method of you "showing" your ideas. I personally just don't bother responding to messages which purpose are to start a flame war, or act elite. Some people crave attention, and so whining with or against them just encourages them to do the same again. If no one responds they get tired of it, and simply go away. Therefore there is no reason to respond to such posts if you don't like the ideas being expressed. Now let's see who understands what I just said, I may get okay art and math marks, but let's just say I'm lucky to have gotten a B in English class

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The Elves, EVIL sinister elves...

[Matt Elder]

I discovered this site about 2 years ago and have been reading posts since the beginning. The reason for the 'complaints' is that the forum has changed and their were quite a number of extremely talent individuals giving alot of good advice/suggestions. Maybe there are still the same number now but being lost in the volume of posts (I doubt it though).

In particular there seems to be an increase in the number of people who are dissatisfied, angry or have an issue of some description in the last month or so. There are alot more people in their threads going "come on people, I posted X and no-one has responded".

I also saw the "I'm leaving post" and made comments there. Maybe people should spend less time having issues and actually making suggestions on people's work (I know writing this and saying that is ironic and somewhat hippocritical).

Yes there are 'newbies' at the site, of which we were all once one and somehow we have to deal with this.

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See ya on da flip side
Matt
http://www.mattelder.com

[Periadam]

Well, I'm under the impression that there's just way too much negativity around here. Most people on the forum are helpful, but there are some like you said who say 'this is crap' or whatever, and I really dislike that, whether its about my own work or not.

So I agree with you.

-Peri

[Chapel]

Bitching and moaning about it doesn't help anybody. Just face the fact that nothing can be done. We won't kick people out or ban them. Dhabih doesn't want any of us to be able to monitor threads (which I think is the only logical solution at the moment) And we can't prevent people from making the same posts over and over. So, to hell with it. Click on the posts see if there is a pic that interest you if not.. move on. I personally can't stand the personal attacks on forum members and useless rants being posted lately, but oh well.. click click and click.

[mantis]

200+ posts = l33t0 people

anyone else = scum of the earth newbz

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Arpan . B
[email protected]
www.liquid2k.com/koma
Highroller Studios

[Solitaire]

Well, it's the question, if you want a place of exchange and creativity (including "non average" quality works and posts) or a secluded area for an elite; segregation!

You can't expect everyone being interested in arts to be a natural born talent - everyone has to do his first steps...

even "missteps" of people who claim other's work for their own, can be ignored peacefully till they fade out with the time...

So please calm down!

[Scorchmon]

Excellent, I get to be a scum of the earth newbie.

[nova]

mantis: you seem to be jumping a little to quickly to conclusions. hmm. take for example, me. take a look at my reg. date and how many posts i have. So i'm not as active as Affected or Chapel, but i don't consider myself a newbie, or to be scumming up the forums or anything. I visit this place just about every day, yet i don't post all that often.

just thought i'd mention that.



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*nova
!

[d12]

I feel ya man..

[Jerry]

where is the justice?

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-KARN- Forever. Die? Never

[Plop]

I.m.o. the best way to deal with this sort of thing is to completely ignore it. If no one would reply to Dives posts his topics would be off the list tomorrow, and he would feel like an ass.
Whatever it is, personal way of venting their anger, trying to make up for lack of attention in their life or just hoping to make someone feel miserable you should respond with silence if their post is offensive to you. I didn't even bother reading Dives posts more than 3 lines down.

[Darkmoon]

hmmm i think im scum of the earth and ive been here longer than he has, maybe if everyone stopped posting useless threads that have nothing to do with digital art, people like sc00p *and now myself* would stop complaining,

i bet all those great artist would come back to help us, its overwhelming to have a huge board with tons of newbies who arent even trying to learn on their own they just post half assed stuff and try to get crits from the masters, or post threads TO somebody like spooge or feng. What we all say when we talk about the good old days, is we posted pictures we actually worked on, none of these oooh look, i drew this its right out of the photoshop clip art, or look, a 5 minute sketch i plan never to use for anything but the purpose of getting more posts on the forum.

im sorry, but the good ol days were, people helped each other because they actually wanted it and didnt whine about not getting replies, there are still people trying to hold the forum together, they help the new people even tho some of them dont deserve it because they take everyones advice with a grain of salt unless your name is matt or craig or something.

Its not that I dont like the new people, its the type of new people that seem to find their way here and ruin it all because the post useless crap that either should be in random musings or kept in their little brains where it cant harm us.

Im not really mad, its more like im upset because a year ago i learned enough to say that ive improved my art from being on this forum, and making the friends i have.

What id like to see is it just go back to the way it was, where there wasnt useless posts, there were new posts every day of finished or at least useful drawings! where we can learn from them. im not saying if your crappy at art dont post, but at least try to learn, dont post a 5 minute sketch, or something you did on paper and dont plan on making it digital. ... hmm now i sound condecending... this is just my opinion cause ive stood by and watched the forum fall to its knees, and i want it back..

thanks for reading this is you did.
-Lisa

[Chapel]

Darkmoon... I love you.

(Just kidding but I do agree with what you said even though I probably post the most useless art here.)

ugh.. I got a hold of some of Shizo's potato juice.

[Rinaldo]

Hehe, anyone wants to start a flame war 'gainst what Darkmoon just said, I'll be on her side.

fuckin' word

[nori]

right on darkmoon. right on.

[Blitz]

The topic of having the forum split into more categories (EX:: Finished Work, Design Sketches[for stuff that will be finished], or Hardware?) could fix this maybe. I don't know what do you think? Would it help?

I feel bad after what you said Darkmoon only because I joined a few months ago. I don't think that I am "One of those newbies" but I haven�t had much to show..for the simple fact that I joined during my busiest trimester in college. So for what it's worth I do agree with what Darkmoon said.

Blitz.....Am I a newbie? It doesn�t say newbie in my box over there< hehe

[Matt Elder]

I agree Darkmoon

P.S. in your post where you refering to me or that 'other' matt that is around now?!

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See ya on da flip side
Matt
http://www.mattelder.com

[Art Addiction]

Darkmoon- You rock! That's exactly what I feel and exactly what's going on. I am still disappointed that this forum has gotten like that. Hopefully in the coming month or so, it will get better.

*crosses fingers*

- Brian

[klaivu]

Nobody actually reads the random musings ..
this forum has 67000 posts, while the other has 7000. People want attention, so they post everything here. We need our spiritual leader ( dhabih ) to preach to the masses of the proper use of the forums. Let the art and art discussion have its place here and everything else in the random musings forum.

But it could be that even if we did so, there'd be a huge lot of posts - and everyone wouldn't get the attention they need.. I say that this place will grow even bigger - and some day well be drowned in the flood of new, finished artwork.

This site needs to be redesigned ( not graphically ), or it will die eventually.

[halo thirteen]

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with dark. I think it's a common problem when things become over-popularized, they tend to get ruined by the casual morons who don't really care about whatever that thing happens to be. In this particular case there's all these 'new' people posting threads about nothing, wasting space, making everybody waste their time, etc.

I'm not even going to pretend I'm a good artist, or that I contribute anything good to the forum, but I don't waste everybody's time with new threads about a five second sketch I did of my dog's foot.

If you're not serious about what you're doing, and you don't really care what people have to say, then don't waste everybody's time with a new thread. You're just ruining the experience for everybody else.

[Muzman]

seems like were going to have one or two of these threads a week for a while too. Soon we'll have "I'm sick of the bitching about the bitching about the bitching about the newbies bitching about the bitching about the old days threads" threads. Well so long as it keeps folks amused I guess.
I admit, I hate fanboy behaviour as much as the next person. In fact, probably more (ie; I'm siding with DM here as well, somewhat). Still, I have a certain amount of faith that most will get it out of their systems sooner or later. Trouble is then more arrive.
I didn't quite put it so bluntly in the FAQ, but there is a bit where I was trying to say "Don't bug the famous gits." and that fresh eyes on a work are as good a critic as anything. But maybe it has to be in the guidelines or something too.
Anyway, I think Dives was just trying to jolt a bit of life and variety into people's stuff. And don't be too hard on the old farts. The original days of this forum were quite unique; Dhabih was AWOL and there wasn't a famous guy in sight. Not that I'm complaining about the skilled folk who pass through. It's just the focus has changed.

[DeadlySCSI]

I didn't think that this would get such a big reaction. I didn't do it for the attention (as such) but it was something that needed to be said.

I agree with Blitz about the sections idea. It'd make alot of people happier.

It's a nice to see that this sort of post gets this sort of reply but a posted picture is lucky to get 10+ replies...

[Matt Elder]

Just to pick up on what halo 13 and Muzman said. You don't have to be an art guru to look at something and say what you think. Sometimes a fresh set of eyes is all that is needed. We all put so much time an effort into something that we start seeing what we want to see, we can't removed ourselves from it but someone else is removed. They can tell us that the character has 6 fingers, detail which one can miss.

Art is there to create a response. If it wasn't, this forum wouldn't exist. It isn't too difficult to tell someone what that response was or how it could have been 'improved' upon. But at the same time, keep in mind that someone may have spent a very long time creating something, just a matter of having a little consideration.

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See ya on da flip side
Matt
http://www.mattelder.com

[This message has been edited by Matt Elder (edited November 26, 2000).]

[Dives]

you see not everything is bad!!

First i would like to disagree with Mantis: posts mean nothing. I can get myself up to 300 posts in 2 hours if i want i just go and pos a little something in 200 threads. The stuff the people write matters. (at this point people shout well your stuff sux you you must be crap too)

Well you see me doing that post created a lot of buzz like this thread where people come to moan and complain about me being an asshole and doing that post. But HEY it got you all talking. You exchange ideas and stuff like what should be done about this.

My only purpose was to get people talking and possibly going somewhere with their art. If you draw something for too long that is all you will know how to draw. Anyway bitch about me as much as you like i don't care. But be sure to bitch about other things you don't like either. Perhaps a bitching forum would be in order.

I think this place needs a chat room so we can all sit down and curse eachother. Well peace people, love you all.

[DeadlySCSI]

...I wouldn't put too much conviction in
[QUOTE]Anyway bitch about me as much as you like i don't care[QUOTE]
Things are changing anyway... "Sensitive Pictures" are going to be order of the day soon and Dhab is changing the way the Forum in set up. Be gratful.

[sydneyshan]

Originally posted by Blitz:

quote

Quote:

The topic of having the forum split into more categories (EX:: Finished Work, Design Sketches[for stuff that will be finished], or Hardware?) could fix this maybe. I don't know what do you think? Would it help?

On the surface, this idea sounds like a good one, but after considering it's implications I feel it would severely damage the forum. The only forum everyone would visit would be the finished artwork forum-and rarely, if ever, the 'in-progress art' etc forums.

There must be a way to restructure the forum or it's posting criteria/content. As most have said who have been with this forum for a while, it has degenerated-for whatever reasons. I feel that some of the inspirational artists who were here before have tired of the overwhelming boom of new posts which pretain to nothing and have left (or rarely contribute anymore.)

I feel their absense, as I have much less to look forward to in developing my own skills as an artist and illustrator. When these people leave, it makes them once again out of our reach, as I felt they were before I came to this forum.

Because of the massive amount of posts, being a busy man, I have resorted to only reading posts that A: have more than 15 posts or B: have a VERY interesting Topic. This is sad, as once I was able to read every post that came in, and reply to almost every one that I could contribute to sensibly.

So what do you do when you have hundreds of users, and so many ideas and attention seekers running around? I'd say you lay down some strick rules for posting in the first place. Redefine what the PURPOSE of the Digital Art Forum is here for. I can't say much about the answers to those two questions, but I'm hoping those people who read the sub-15 reply posts will be able to contribute here and tell everybody what shouldn't be bothered posting. I've heard "5-minute sketches of crap", and "scans of stuff I'll never make digital", this is a good place to start at least.

I wish I could give everybody a definitive solution, but I've been removed from the forum recently during it's 'downhill slide', so I can't give to much in the way of solutions. I believe it comes down to a collective decision by the members as to what is tolerated and not tolerated. Once this has been formulated, put a link to it at the top of the topics page and refer breachers to it as they occur or arrive.

So here's a call for suggestions! Please give us an idea of what you believe this forum is here for, what should not be posted here, and what should be.

Thanks for you thoughts and comments in advance.


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Shannon Murdoch
www.bounce.to/shan

[Tinusch]

If you have under 1300 posts, then you're a newbie

[mantis]

I was only joking. . .simple solution that dhabih already offered. . .

split the forum into subgroups and ban lamers who post dumb topics like "are you a real painter?"

I.M.N.S.H.O

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Arpan . B
[email protected]
www.liquid2k.com/koma
Highroller Studios