[Dhabih]

Been gone for a few days.

Anyway, originally i thought that if i let things be the way they are stuff will work itself out. The influx of people will somehow all work out and these forums will stay cool and things will always be the same. I now think though that changes have to be made in order to accomodate the growth. The baby's too big for the crib now i guess. There is just too much going on at once, even i have a hard time keeping up with everything and knowing which topic to read (its impossible to read all of the way things are now)

There seem to be 2 major problems that have come up. Organization, and useless posts.

Well, here is what i could come up with as a solution as far as the organization aspects of this goes.

Split the forums. Not into "newbie" or "non-newbie" cause that just ain't right and wont work. Not into "3d" and "2d". But the best thing i can think of is the following.

• A "Gallery/Finished work" Forum
  
• A "Work in progress" Forum
  
• A "Discussion" Forum
  

Descriptions as follows:
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Gallery/Finished Work
All threads begin with a final image posted created by the topic starter, ready to show, or to be critiqued

Work in Progress
All threads begin with a work in progress image that is not final, but a question is asked for feedback or for help in order to finish the image.

Discussion
All threads begin with a discussion topic, comment, question. Just pure discussion about art, technique, hardware, software, links, other peoples artwork, websites. Basically anything that is digital art related that does not belong to the other 2 forums.

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Whatcha think? I've always been a fan of keeping the forum together and not splitting it, but i think that's just not possible anymore. This, however, is not that bad an idea in my mind, because it doesnt split the audience any. Its just like going through the forums regularly, except they are split into categories that are easier to browse. Downside of this? You have to click one or two more mouse clicks to get through it all, but i think thats worth the organizational benefits.

You all have sometime to convince me otherwise, but i hope most, if not all, of you will agree with me on this.

Any better ideas are welcome.

NOTE!!!: I have no control over how this forum program actually works, its a program i bought that i do not know how to hack so i cant do any sort of new feature that is not already inherent in the system.


As for useless posts, bad attitudes, flames, and other immature comments,...the only way is to start policing this place, and thats not something i want to do. HOWEVER, if you have a problem with someone and notice that a particular person is causing nothing but trouble, and is rarely constructive, e-mail me about it. I can not read all the posts and am not able to see how everyone is acting, so if i get e-mail about someone thats disruptive, i can then look into it. Especially if i get mail from several people about the same person. This doesnt mean if you email me about someone, they are automatically kicked. I will check out the situation and make sure its serious enough to warrant a kick (after a couple warnings). Besides this, i really dont see how else to keep bad posts down. Moderators are something i'd prefer to stay away from because that usually ends up with someone taking too much control and just pissing off a third of the readers.

My apologies for not addressing these problem sooner, i hope you will all continue to visit for a long time.

your host,
-dhab

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http://www.sijun.com/

[DeadlySCSI]

We knew our Lord Dhab would come and sort out the mess eventually... and things are only gonna get better from this I think.

[Matt Elder]

Fantastic Idea!!! I've been dragged into the idea of multiple areas kicking and screaming but think it has to be done as I've always been against it.

In general I think the topic breakdowns you've mentioned are a good way to do it. I think Random Musings should remain as an area to talk about completely random stuff and if people are already using it, probably not best to close it down (getting people into a 'habit' of checking more than one area could be difficult but I think people are just going to have to bite the bullet on this one).

I know there is an idea not to try and be 'elittist' (as I don't like the idea) and have a 'newbies' and 'old farts' section but I think you could still have a 'newbies' section without being condescending like this. I know sometimes I get on the forum and want to look at some 'newbies' stuff and try to give 'basic' comments on technique, things to consider etc. Sometimes I'm amazed when someone's first post is a kick arse image. Maybe the 'newbies' section could also be extended to include ideas of like 'well I'm this brilliant artist but this is the first time i attempted this'. OK, the term 'newbie' is all wrong, maybe something like 'the ground level' to give a feel that this area is for people 'experimenting' or something similar.

However, a concern is that people will post things in the 'finished' gallery which are not 100% finished. They may recieve some crits about it and re-work it posting it again in the 'work in progress' or somehow be double dipping. I think the areas will need to be clearly defined, even to the point of saying, if you continually put stuff in the wrong section, it will be removed (may be even add it into the FAQ)

The idea of 'policing' is tricky. If you had area moderators what one considers acceptable, another might not. I might be wrong but I think if you said to someone, "hey this can't go on" that might be well recieved whereas if Person X with 2000 posts to their name said it, it might not be recieved well. Sometimes it is a fine line as if a flame war does arise (which unfortunately it does around here), the 'victim' or those involved should be given the opportunty to put their view across. Maybe even have an area "blowing of stem and flame wars". Actually on second thought, that might just encourage it. In general I don't like the idea of a moderator other than you but you can't read everything. The idea of people complaining might work so long as the person concerned doesn't feel like they've been unjustly ganged up upon.

Yes changes have to be made, yes some people are not going to like them but at the end of the day, if these changes don't happen, I'm not sure what the future of the forum will be. Similar to you, I thought the forum would sort itself out but that doesn't look possible.

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See ya on da flip side
Matt
http://www.mattelder.com

[This message has been edited by Matt Elder (edited November 26, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Matt Elder (edited November 26, 2000).]

[A.Buttle]

As long as we keep Random Musings, I'm down. And, don't you people ever sleep?!

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So...which part of "get out of town freak" weren't you clear on, John?

Joe Dillingham

[email protected]
Three Times A Day

[yoshi]

I think you should seriously consider one more category: traditional art. Some ppl are aparently interested in digital only, some like both.

[DeadlySCSI]

Time zones... it just LOOKS like we don't sleep...

[Blitz]

Sounds good.. now would "Work in progress" include maybe character designs and such. I guess it would.

There seems to be allot of people, especially newbies that submit there characters and line drawings just to get some critiques on basic skills. That�s fine by me because it seems as if they are trying to get better at penciling before digitally coloring them. Some times they get a little flak for posting just a line art.

Maybe a Line art thread or something.

I think the forum has expanded into more than just digital art.

anyhoo

Blitz.......Teacher to the forum artists....HA!

[A.Buttle]

Well, at least Dhabih, Blitz and I don't sleep.

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So...which part of "get out of town freak" weren't you clear on, John?

Joe Dillingham

[email protected]
Three Times A Day

[Dives]

Dhabih: the idea is good but we end up with the same problem. The forum with the most posts will be the people go to and everyone will start trouble there like here. The only suggestion i would like to add is that if you do make what you posted here there should be strict rules if it does not belong there the one who posted it get some kind of punishemnt... or atleast for constant misposting. I like the idea.

[El Caseron]

Great idea....
but maybe Dives' right... I guess you should consider his suggestion bout rules.

[halo thirteen]

I think it's a very good idea, I like that you don't want to split it into a lot of parts, I've seen a lot of forums split into like 20 sections, and it just makes a huge mess of the thing.

As far as moderaters go, it's not exactly an evil thing, but like you said, the problem is that nobody is completely neutral. However one thing I've seen on other forums is having people who can move threads to the appropriate section, I'm not sure if ubb can do this though.

[Rhomb]

Sounds like a very good idea, Dhabih.

[phreaknasty]

i hate to agree (its against my nature) but it might be the only option left. i'd add two additional things though.

• monitors
  
• tutorial forum
  

monitors - i think choosing a couple of well intentioned old-timers to go about and knock some sense into some of the idiot posters laying about would be good. seems to me the main problem is the mass of idiots who post before getting a sense of the forum and without putting any effort or though into their art/posts. when i come to a new place, be it a social gathering or a online community, i make sure i get a sense of the place before i make myself know. we've recently had a dirth of dumb-asses you post half thoughtout crap and grossly underdeveloped work. just look to the November draw club with the idiot "reserve this spot" stuff and the drivel that have filled many of the spots. if there were a couple of thugs who could send out "stop being a idiot messages" maybe we could quell some of the idiotic influx.

tutorial forum - if we could have a forum that had limited new posting access (peps like dhabih, liquid, spooge, fred, francis, jason, micke, joachim, waco and the like would obviously get posting privilege) we could assure that some of the better info wasn't washed away in floods of less then informative posts. if anyone else wanted to post a new message on the tutorial forum they'd have to send you an email asking permission. anyone could reply so as to allow exercises similar to the cube tut, but only selected people could post new threads. if any thread on any other forum became especially interesting and information rich perhaps it could get move to the tutorial forum.

hope this helps. decent idea overall dhabih (though sad its necessary). i defiantly agree that it shouldn't be split by medium (i.e. 2d, traditional).

one other thing it might do well to somehow get across the message (during the membership creation process) to be respectful, thoughtful, and non-idiotic.

[This message has been edited by phreaknasty (edited November 26, 2000).]

[Lajun]

yes.. that's a really great idea dhab. Especially when it gives you the possibility to browse the gallery it self. without any "junk" posts.

[Blitz]

A.Buttle--once again someone mentions this sleep thing.. Im dieing to know what it is.


Blitz.....MT. DEW...MMMMMMMMMMMM

[n8]

hmm...fantasmic

[faustgfx]

reminds me of school..



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sky high with a heartache of stone you never see me 'cos i'm always alone

[email protected] /
icq#35983387

[Digital Genesis]

I like the idea.

I seriously doubt the worries that 'people will just go where there are the most posts'.

Personally I will be interested in seeing both finished art, concept art and works in progress as well as pure discussion threads.

I used to favor the idea of moderators with the power to move inappropriate posts into the appropriate forums.
However, with the current proposal to split the forums I don't see the need for it.

Basically, people who post wrongfully in the different forums will surely get flamed by the rest of the members.

Also, I like the fact that the audience is not split into 2d/3d or similar.

Dhabih has my full support on the current proposal as it is.

[Muzman]

I really can't argue against that idea. It's getting to the stage that it wouldn't hurt to just try something and see how it goes.
I think one or two extra moderators wouldn't hurt either. There will be teething problems with that though: the word of most people around here isn't worth much without pretty pictures to back them up (and the people with the prettiest pictures won't have the time or the inclination to do the job, nor will they necessarily be the right people for the gig).
Beyond that rules and heirarchies of any major sort are bad news. There's an element around here these days that's just determined to be mad at everyone for something; be it bad art, or bad english, or silly posts, or off topic. I don't know what they're after. Some sort of insular, dry monastry of an art forum I think sometimes. "Anyone steps out of line and they are to be tied in a wet sack and beaten with reeds for soiling our fair confines!!". Bleaah.

Try the split by all means, a bit of a shake up won't kill the place. (Incidentally, where will all the old stuff go?)

[Rinaldo]

Dhab- have you read this thread?? http://www.sijun.com/dhabih/ubb/Forum2/HTML/006532.html

there were a lot of good ideas posted by Sumaleth.

I don't like splitting up work in progress and the finished work/gallery.
it just doesn't seem to be of merit at all to me.

I like all the art or posts with images (images done by the person whom is posting them) in one big thread.


Also I know there are some fetures which I have seen other sites (which use the same MB system) impliment. such as having a counter for the number of views a thread has had and the ability to get to any page of a multiple page thread from the main page
if you can't do this then can you please say so.

ther than that I have no problem with what you're going to do. keep the DA forum the RM forum and add a discussion forum.

Can you please Elaborate on your thinking behind the finished and work in progress split? just seems like a waste of time to me. the people whom are going to want art are going to have to go to both. just more clicks.

[klaivu]

Would it be possible to have all the posts without images in them ( in the gallery and the work in progress forums ) to not to go to the top once they get a reply ? so that they would just silently disappear... how about this idea ?

And when you split up the old forum, where will the old messages go ? there's a lot of fun and useful stuff in there, so i hope you're not going to throw it all away ..

Rinaldo, i say that this forum will grow even more - and that the growth is exponential. Artists know artists and the word will spread.. so i think were nowhere near the peak. Something NEEDS to be done.


[This message has been edited by klaivu (edited November 26, 2000).]

[Blitz]

This may have been mentioned, but here it goes.

Maybe some sort of chat room. There can be a general chat room and a chat room for the other topics. This way if some one has a simple question that can be answered by 1 or 2 people they can try the chat room before going off and making a new thread and cluttering up the place. This would be great, now that I think about it. I remember many a time where there was a question I would have liked to ask but knew it was just a simple one that didn't need a whole thread of its own.

Yaaa that�t it..chat rooms would great addition.

Man is it late. And dark..
Who here has the sun....I want it back...It's probably over by New York by now.

Blitz......Gimme the Sun


On Rinaldo's thought.... Check out the Forum at www.ffonline.com It seems to be the same program but they have a few things that this one dosn't. It's done up quite nice.


[This message has been edited by Blitz (edited November 26, 2000).]

[klaivu]

Ha ! a chat room is a marvellous idea !
now why didn't i think of that ..

the sun is going down here ..

[Rinaldo]

klaivu- I couldn't agreee more, I don't think I've said anyhitng to contradict what you said. I've been wanting to slice this place up for ages^_^

I just don't think that the finished/in-progress split is going to make much of a difference. the ammount of posts that are taken up by stuff that will be channeled into the discussion forum would solve most of the problems.
I think the classification between finished and in progress is hard to make. something is finished when you say it is. if there is going to be a "gallery" thread then fine but why post critiques in there if the artist has finished the pic. it's nice to discuss things so that on the next pic they can improve but I don't think it's very usefull. what if the person decides to change it a bit after the critiques come. are you allowed to change something after it's been put in the gallery thread? It just doesn't seem to make sense to me.
I don't have a problem with it that much just doesn't seem to be very productive.

[CyberLink]

The idea is good but in case of the forum split user will have to visit several phorums instead of one... It seems like most of the people here will look through the all.

[schmick]

I'm new here, i suck at art, but i like looking at it.

With a board of this size i think you need moderators (surely you can't sort though all the stuff by yourself), and you definately need to split it into seperate forums. 1 post could dissapear within a day with all the new topics being posted.

[Rag]

One thing that would really help is just not to reply to the idiotic messages. Fight the urge to state your opinion on that thread, this is what starts the flame wars. I read the post on the england vs america thing and just didn't reply to it because I knew it was stupid to cry about and I didn't want to bring it back to the top. As for splitting up the forum, I haven't been here long, but I like the idea, as long as the veterans will stop by the various forums and give their opinion and not be geared toward just coming on, looking over the finished stuff, and then leaving. New folks can have some ugly work, but we are learning so be patient with us and help. I have posted about 4 pics and have recieved a total of about 2 replies on each, very discouraging because most of them weren't even helpful. I almost left because of the little snerts who want to do nothing but put people down.
Anywho, I like the idea and support whatever dhaib feels is needed.

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I don't believe in born talent, only born desire. The rest is all work.

[Binke]

I think it's a good idea Dhab.
Can't talk more *munch glompf* eating.



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Art Dimensional

[Spectra]

Sound good Dhab, i agree

[Chapel]

Well here are my 2 cents. I think if a monitor was nominated by the forum then it probably wouldn't be that bad. I think we really only need 3 forums. Random Musings, Art Discussion, and Art Gallery. Random stays the same, most topics dealing with art questions and no pictures go to Art discussion, and the last is just for posting art. I still think with the amount of people that have joined the forum it would be nice to have a monitor. Not to bad mouth or delete threads, but just to move them into the proper category, and maybe lock threads down when they get out of hand or turn into personal attacks.

Sometimes you have to do what you hate in order to achieve your goals... like working.