[Midnight]

Well it figured that my first post here had to be a help wanted one, but some people recommended this forum to me as a place where some of the most talented artists on the net hang out Now allow me to introduce myself:

I'm the design lead for The Shard (www.theshard.com), an upcoming first person shooter. We are a good core team that have been working together from over 7 months (oldest members) and 2 months (the newest additions). However we're sadly lacking in the art department, since our main two artist's lives got very busy lately to commit to such a project.
The project in question will be a multiplayer first person shooter set in a fantasy world. (The decision for this was based on the fact that we needed something relatively simple in concept so we can devote more resources to our engine).
We are planning to pitch this game to a major publisher once we have a demo that the team is satisfied with, and have already been in contact with companies such as Gathering of Developers (www.godgames.com). As far as the business side of the contracts goes, we have recently been scouted out to be represented by Octagon (www.octagon1.com) who boast quite a good track record.

Now to the heart of the matter, we are looking for some good dedicated artists of all types. Here's a list of what you need to know:

3D Character artist: You should have some knowledge of MAX, in the areas of modelling, skinning, and especially animation (bones). Ideally you will adopt a character and work on him/her/it from beginning to end, retaining total creative freedom, and polishing according to feedback from the gamers. Please note that we would also like to do some models that are not bipeds. Please figure around 10k polys for a player model. (This will be tweaked once we have our LOD done, but these are pretty much conservative numbers)

3D Scene artist/ Level designer: We will be creating all of our levels in MAX as well, and although you will have freedom to do what you want here as well, be prepared to modify your work during playtesting for game level flow. If you feel comfortable only doing the modelling, texturing and lighting side of things, we've got people to cover you in the entity and playability departments. What I'd like to see is good follow through on creating and maintaining architectural styles. Right now we're giving levels a range of 50k polys.

2D Skin/Texture artists - Well be comfortable with alpha layers..also keep in mind that we're going to be asking for some pretty nice detail, such as murals, sculpted surfaces, etc.

Ok now there are 2 additional requirements: 1) You've gotta be over 18 (sorry but no publishers will sign any team with members under that age), 2) don't fizzle out. We have all come to know each other as friends on the team, and would like to get you as involved in realizing your dreams in this game as we're trying to realize ours. People that tend to stand on the sidelines with us just don't make it in the long run.

Benefits & Drawbacks:
- You're going to have to work for free for a while, we're not funded yet and all have to keep another means on the side to stay afloat.
- However once we do get funded expect a salary and profit-sharing plan(if you decide to relocate to wherever we vote to be based at). We'll provide help for that once we get the $. If not you'll be hired for contract work and we can negotiate from there for what you wish to do.
- You will of course get due credit for your work as well. If you decide to leave, we will still give you credit for what you did, but for the sake of the project, others will have to pick up where you left off.

If you have any questions/comments, please feel free to email me at [email protected]

PS: If you'd like me to see work samples, please be gracious and just send me a link to a site instead of large files in the mail, it'll help me get replies out faster.

[TheMilkMan]

Well good luck finding any artists with expereince to help. I would recommend this kind of oppertunity to someone trying to break into the game industry. Good oppertunity to work with a design plane and under an art director. Give you a good chance to work with deadlines and be creative as possible in the limited amount of time given..that is how it is in the buisness and if you are reading this and you are looking for an oppertunity..well this might be good to look into!

[Midnight]

Thanks for the encouraging post! Well it's not really about experience here...if an artist has the experience he'd already be sending out resumes to (already) established companies.
Mainly what I'm looking for most is motivation and follow-through One thing everyone should keep in mind in the game industry is that you are ALWAYS still learning. Every day brings new challenges and more potential to grow. I kinda feel that's one of the reasons many seek out this industry in the first place, the feeling that you actually count for something and that with time you'll always get wiser

Well as far as the requirements go with MAX, etc. I can gladly help out anyone to help train in the aspects that we need to work on (although I consider myself intermediate in skill, I do know the methods used). Just don't be a complete newbie to 3d modeling, (btw a good program to learn that on is Milkshape).

Well anyways, as said we're all gaining exp as we go along as well, so don't think a lack of it will count against you

[garthmidgley]

10,000 poly's for a model, seems a little excessive. You really only need between 1000 to 1500 per model. That's more than enough for a decent model. Or maybe I'm just too used to working on PSX

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[Ben Barker]

I agree. Any game coming out for next Christmas (in 2001) will probably have player models around 5000 polys. You should shoot for mid-range systems, which in a year will be only slightly better than $2500-3000 comps today.

This is a pretty hard thing to predict, and if I was really good at it I would probably be getting paid for my estimates... so take it for what it is

[TheMilkMan]

Wow garth I did not think that psx could handle 1000-1500 polys..you must mean psx2.
I can't imagine that a game would come out with 10,000 ploy models and look anygood..ohh sure the engine might be able to handle the polys but what about the low res texture over 10,000 ploys...how much texture memory do you think your machine is going to have? Jesus I can't imagine trying to lay out UV's for 10,000 ploys..momma that would take a long time . BTW does anyone hate 3d max UV editor as much as I do? Hmm maybe your game will have dynamic LOD system? Anyways if you could use enough high res texture maps I could make a sweet character with 10,000 polys but the sad truth is until memory isn't a probelm and you can use like 2 1024x1024 maps for a guy with that many polys I might cut down the count to like MAX 2000 polys.

Ohh and I doubt there are any games out there besides single player games that are going to have 5000 poly characters..I have not heard of any..can you name what games these are I would like to check it out

[garthmidgley]

Nah, I'm working on the original, the totally useless PSX, every game for this console should ship with a hammer
What I meant was that that ammount of poly's would be 'more' than enough. You can get a pretty sweet character out of around 500 polys for the PSX, and then they get cut down to about 200 usually to get the frames back But at 320 x 240 (or 640 x 240 max res) you can't really tell anyway. That's for PSX 1 anyway.
Bring on the next gen I say.

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[samdragon]

I did something like this a while ago and it was tones of fun!
good luck with the project!

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VISIT SAMDRAGON'S HOME

[Flinthawk]

Just a little info...I'm working on an Xbox title as we speak and all our characters have been built to be around 10,000 polys...the programmers here are NOT worried about the number of polys we're using and are infact encouraging it over the use of textures. One of our lowest LODs (Level of Details) is around 2000 polys. I'm making my friends that are working on PC games quite jealous everytime I tell them I was told to add more polys to something =)

Good luck on the project though.

-Flinthawk

[Midnight]

Actually Flinthawk's not too off here. Frankly I balked at the polycount as well at first if the figures hadn't come from our lead programmer. (Who btw is working on a PS2 title as his full-time job).
By the time we release PCs will not only be able to run such detailed models and environments well, but gamers will be expecting it. Up till then we also have a radically new LOD system that can actually scale the game to run well on today's computers.

I can personally relate in a way...hell from all my modelling exp, all I ever worked from was low poly (my initial exp in 3D was in leveldesign)...and then we started getting figures from ATI, Matrox and Nvidia for their new cards. And then I sat there before a scene trying to make every extra poly really count as an integral part of the level to scale upward. Not as easy as many make it out to be at first.

Well anyways, the numbers still stand, and are as stated before, conservative and not excessive. Excessive would have been saying to place 40 facial bones in a model for a Shooter, not mentioning any games here

Who knows what awaits us all in 10 years? At this rate character models in games could look more detailed than a person in real life

Hope this helped. I'd bring up the maths on our LOD to back me up but a) it'll put everyone including me to sleep and b) shhh it's a secret

[Midnight]

Oh forgot to address the MAX issue...(heh it's a bit late here I'm about to conk out from being up so much).

I can't really comment on their UVW editor, because it'e the first real one I've used (before that it was texture nudges with the arrow keys in editors)...but there is a trick around mapping all of them out for the skin. I've been doing some experiments pulling a low res skin (something I retouched from a photo and of course the photo was taken at the wrong angle) over a 2000 poly model, and the best simply comes from dividing up the model itself into more face selections. I think a a standard skin used to be front of head, torso, arms, legs and then the backs of the same. When I further divided it all up into groups such as taking say a leg and making it foot, ankle, calf, knee, thigh, etc. it gave me a nicer illusion, much easier UVW mapping not to mention being able to tweak a skin to look nice in more than one area.

Not putting this out as the only way to do it, but it seemed to work nicely for me.
Oh before anyone asks why MAX, it's simply because our programmers know the SDK well, we can write engine scripts right into a scene itself, and just about the allround flexibility of it.

[Midnight]

Ah crap knew I forgot something else!

I'd love to say a big hearty "Thank You!" to everyone wishing us well in the project.
And whatever you're doing good luck to you too.

[gauss]

as a very, very tentative inquiry... how would you characterize the style of the game/environment/characters? initially i was somewhat turned off by the fantasy setting, as i'm a s.f. lad, but as long as it's something more than vanilla fantasy.. or would the artist have input in that area?

how about a sample character description?

[Midnight]

Good questions. Ok let me go a bit into characterization with you.
First and foremost keep in mind that we are making a game that (we hope) many people will play, which means evryone expects something different. Tho keep it simple we'll use two stereotype players, one who wants Tolkienesque traditional RPG characters, and the other who's sick of Tolkien and wants some new material. It's a fine thin line to split the game's content between the two, so we usually go with this plan....

1) Someone on the team makes a suggestion
2) The entire team ends up discussing it with everyone having a say.
3) After we all agree on something, an artist adopts it (which is usually easy most of the suggestions come from the artists themselves)
4) Concept work is done with total creative freedom
5) The rest of the team provides feedback
6) If needed the concept is tweaked and then the creation process really begins (again the artist has freedom to do what they want to from the concept piece)
7) Later on everything will be shown to a player community who then vote and provide final feedback. Here it's important to keep in mind that not all feedback is helpful, but often a good point may be brought up.
8) The character is finalized

It's a pretty extended process, but also very important. Your art becomes a sole factor in determining whether people actually want to give a game a chance, and also sets the standards for anyone wanting to make a similar game.

Hmm as for a character description that we have right now, I'll quote one from a public release:

quote:

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Arach Guardian

Only the well informed few know the orgin of these beasts, half spider, half dark elf. It is rumored that these monstrosoties were first spawned by the mad experiments of a necromancer seeking immortality. Others believe that these creatures may be afterbirths from when the Spider-Goddess Krea supposedly created the dark elven race. While another story states that this may actually be the result of a sacred rite performed by dark elven priests upon their own people in an insane pursuit to reach perfection. Whatever the means in which they came about these creatures show a remarkable intelligence, and have organized themselves into hivelike communities, much unlike their regular spider brethren.
A fearsome foe in combat this creature is extremely agile, able to scale walls and ceilings alike, shooting webs to ensnare unwary opponents.
Although preferring to live in large cave networks and cities, these beings have ventured out of late to investigate who is responisible for the disappearances in their ranks.

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Hope this helped out

[Kaput]

OMG! 10,000 faces! MY GOD! here is a model I made for a slow engine that is 404 faces I can't Imagine what I can do with 10k faces

I wish I could help with the project, but I'm 16 so I can't be hired But I would be glad to help for free I need experience!



Kaput
PS. I did work on a few non profit games, and I'm still working on one

[This message has been edited by Kaput (edited November 10, 2000).]

[Midnight]

Wow that's not bad! Unfortunately the age problem still is out there, and there's liitle we can do since you're 16. I'd like to stress that it's not us saying we wouldn't want anyone under 18, but instead all the factors that come with publishing a commercial game and having someone under 18. I can still work something out with many 17 year olds that turn 18 before we sign with a publisher though.
And we're still too early to think about anything in the realm of an internship. You see my major concern is getting you the credited experience (and not to mention the credit for your work) that you'd deserve, but right now I just can't. Also it can become a concern with school and parents and such.
All I can say is stick with the non-profit for now (you'll get all the good exp you'll want in that for now as long as it gets finished), get a letter of reccomendation from your team lead, and by that time you'll be 18 or near it anyways.

Wished I could've helped you out more.

[Kaput]

aww...

Oh well, I'll keep practicing. If you can't find anyone that is 18 I'd be happy to help you with anything you need.


Kaput

[surferboi]

um where im from Florida.... 15 is a legal workin age... thats some weird age limits u got in NC.

btw Midnight has your team ever considered moving to a diffrent app like maya / maya builder?

[Jyashuwa]

Hi Midnight, Heres my link www.outofideas.com/josh
It's limited, but I thought I'd give it shot.

I currently work at a childrens game company as a tester, and volenteer animator(trying to get a job), but my Im more interested in mainstream games. If you feel I can contribute anything, just give me an email

Oh yah, Im 21.

[email protected]

[Midnight]

Surferboi:

It's not an age limit on a working age. It's just certain factors such as these:

1) Signing a Deal: Publishers are VERY tough when checking out a development team. Anything they deem a possible hindarance in getting a product finished in time can affect whether they sign a team or not and what budget they allocate. Think of this, many times a developer will enter crunch-mode, meaning that people may not even come home from the office for days on end. The hours can get insane, which quickly can become a big problem for someone still in school for example.

2) Relocation: For us to get a deal signed, a large number of people may have to relocate out of state. Big problem for people under 18.

3) Content: First Person Shooters can get a bit violent, requiring us to apply for an ESRB Mature rating. It wouldn't look too good if you had people under 18 officially working on a game that is rated for ages 18 and up.

Jyashuwa:

Sent you a mail

[Midnight]

Oh yeah, and about MAYA...we plan on using it for future projects, but right now we won't for 2 reasons:

1) A MAX license costs around $2000 for a workstation, MAYA costs $7000, and don't start with Softimage Tight budget means we'll have to make do with some cheaper power tools for the first game.

2)Our programmers know the MAX SDK in and out, allowing us to directly integrate scripts into a scene/level. Unfortunately they don't have the time to learn how to do MAYA yet.